I hate level scaling. Why wont they just get rid of it. : V - Skyrim

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:54 am

Skyrim is trying its best to have the positives of both, and avoid as many negatives of both as possible. It is the best compromise.

No, not really. Level-scaling is somewhat necessary, but I still feel they're doing it wrong. If anything, it should be used together with their Radiant system to make the game far more fun. You should still find caves full of rats, but once you're a higher level, maybe the rats are now being eaten by a pack of wolves that are close to your level (or lower, but greater in quantity). And after you've killed them, they're gone again until another "unexpected" event takes place. That would even be fun at lower levels, when the dynamic events could actually result in higher level enemies being spawned for you to fight (and die by). It would be far more realistic than what we have now, and hopefully more akin to Morrowind with just a tad of newer technology to help make it even better.

The dungeons themselves could also benefit from dynamic events, to the point where maybe, after visiting one a few times, it's suddenly overrun with the undead or daedra -- but there's an actual reason, other than your new level, as to why. Maybe part of the cave wall has deteriorated and exposed ancient ruins or burial grounds. Or maybe a group of necromancers or conjurors has moved in and their summonings went terribly wrong. Or maybe you're caught in an epic battle between the two groups.

Statistics matter in RPGs, but we're far beyond the point where a small number that's displayed on your screen actually affects everything you can possibly do in-game. It should be responsible for some, or even many things, but certainly not everything.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:18 pm

In a roleplaying game, the game world should never deign to suit the life of the character. The character should grow according to the confines of the game world (and if it's done right, it should never really be "confined".) I can only surmise that people who think Oblivion/Skyrim style level scaling is a good idea don't really want to roleplay at all. They just want an arcade style romp in an open sandbox world.

As to the opening question: "I hate level scaling, why don't they just get rid of it?" I imagine the answer has something to do with there being a lot of people who just want an arcade style romp in an open sandbox world.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:43 pm

have you seen bandits in skyrim wearing anything higher than nordic steel?

Elven armor parts, ebony, glass, dwarven/dwemer, also way too common in random containers (shouldn't be in them at all). I'm sure that daedric and dragon armor will start appearing in random containers and on bandits too, soon. (like in vanilla oblivion, i think?)

And oh yeah, everyone (including creatures, especially dwemer machines) is dropping tons of flawless gems and (filled) soul gems. I have rather large stacks of soul gems now, including grand and greater.

It's completely immersion breaking.

I also have enough dwarven smithing materials to equip an army (i stopped converting them to ingots at 256 ingots), from drops of dwemer machines, which isn't that unrealistic i guess but still.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:28 pm

Say what you will, but it's an argument I've seen enough times already to make me want to puke blood on command, and it always ends up in circles because it ultimately comes down to a matter of personal taste and experience. I will only state that I've already said enough of what I have to say, even in the first post I made in response to this thread, and that I have played Morrowind and Oblivion, and I am more than familiar enough with both to recognize elements of both in how Skyrim has been scaled and designed. I'm rather tired of spending time on these forums seeing how so many people find so many things to complain about that I don't understand in terms of what exactly is the problem apart from nitpicking and conflict of expectations and each person's personal taste.

There are still people who moan constantly about fast travel even being an option in the game and want it removed because it somehow ruins their experience just by being an option that they never use anyway. And they want to just simply beg to have it removed for everyone else because they themselves never use it.

I'm spending more time on pointless arguments that amount to difference of opinions when I'd much rather be playing this game because I'm finding a great deal of enjoyment from the experience, and the problems that seem to be apparent for other people I'm just not experiencing at all, myself. I feel like I'm playing something that isn't anything remotely at all like what they seem to be playing, and that they both share the same name of Skyrim because of some crazy coincidence. And all I end up seeing is that some people are so relentlessly negative about it all, and I'd rather just stop wallowing in that and remember that I can still enjoy things because I'm not having the problems that everyone else is having, while still playing the same thing.

Maybe it's that I don't try to mold it to my own set of expectations and cry havoc when that fails; but instead I just take the experience for what it is. Maybe it's because I don't make every effort to min-max my skills and gear, and just instead enjoy adventuring and taking things as they come along.

Sorry that you seem to have such a big issue with it, but I'm finding that they've gotten everything just about right, and I enjoy seeing how much is drawn from Morrowind and Oblivion, and in all the right places by my estimation. There are still some faults and flaws, but they are tiny shadows that pale in comparison to how awesome I find Skyrim, as a whole, and I'd rather hold on to that enjoyment than let it become ultimately ruined because I spent too much time fielding about all this negativity that others seem to have about it.

So you're right, I'm conveniently short of words to keep going on with this. You have fun with that. I'm going to go with more positive environs than this.

I'm very sleepy so i'll just give you a short reply.

1) Don't pay attention to these if they ruin your mood and ofc don't let them influence your views.
2) I love the game and that's the reason i complain about it - if i didn't love it i wouldn't bother
3) I already played quite a lot and the experience was great but can't help thinking it could be even better (according to my views)
4) I don't min-max or anything, what i'm saying is mostly about immersion

In a roleplaying game, the game world should never deign to suit the life of the character. The character should grow according to the confines of the game world (and if it's done right, it should never really be "confined".) I can only surmise that people who think Oblivion/Skyrim style level scaling is a good idea don't really want to roleplay at all. They just want an arcade style romp in an open sandbox world.

As to the opening question: "I hate level scaling, why don't they just get rid of it?" I imagine the answer has something to do with there being a lot of people who just want an arcade style romp in an open sandbox world.

Unfortunately it seems so. Roleplaying/immersion just doesn't fit with this scaling. They either want an arcade game with a static character or a "sims" game to spend time on.
And most are like "level scaling is great - look at that beautiful mountain in the horizon!"
And it's a shame that some people haven't experienced proper games and think that taking away scaling equals linearity.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:12 pm

Absence of level scaling essentially makes the game a linear experience. You can't have a free roaming open world if you're going to get smoked going into areas with higher level baddies.

OK, we can all agree that the real world is an open world right?

In the real world I can go into the local stamp collectors club and manage to beat them all up, but on the other hand I might accidently stumble in to the HQ of the local Hells Angels chapter and get my ass whipped.

This does not make the real world linear, it just means that I have to select my targets and equip myselfs properly to deal with the expected resistance.

Skyrim could work the same but it isn't. I have been one-shoting bandits a long time and am currently level 53. High archery skill (100) with all perks , legendary daedric bow with two enchantments, and a sneak of 100 with all perks there as well. But recently I have started encountering bandits that can take as many as 3 arrows before they die, not to mention that they seem to have an easier time now detecting my expert sneak moving around. And this in caves that are reccomended for level 8 in the Prima guide, I am sure if I had been there 20 levels ago I would have had no trouble at all one-shoting all of them. More opponents should have a fixed level span (i.e 10 - 20) meaning that if I go there too early I will be in serious trouble, but if I return at higher levels they would be easy. This makes the game more realistic than having level 50 bandits where they started at level 5...

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:15 am

Scaling has one again utterly ruined another TES game for me.

Bye bye guys. 'Open world' is dead. You can't balance stuff for crap, I'm either two-shoting everything or dying in two hits to something. Often within the same dungeon.

It's clear that Bethesda's only solution is to ignore the problem completely. This is a beautiful bit of art, but an ugly hideous game, and I bought it for the game.

You criticise scaling... but then you say stuff is not scaled... You cannot two-shot stuff and die in two hits if stuff is scaled... If Skyrim were scaled everything would take the same amount of hits, and would do the same damage. I hated Oblivion's scaling, but really like the way Skyrim handles it. It's handled in a sort of mix of Fallout 3/Morrowind's ways. Most stuff is on a set level like Morrowind. Giants, mammoths, frost trolls and dwemmer stuff is all at a set level from like 20 to 30. I think dwemmer stuff is 20 and giants are 30ish. Dragon Priests are always on level 50. That means some areas are impossible at low levels, just like Morrowind.

Quest rewards are scaled like in Oblivion because it would break character progression without scaling. If you did the Jarl of Whiterun's quest at level 1 and get a steel sword it may be better than your iron one, it may not. If you come back at level 20/30/50 and do the quest and he gives you a plain steel sword... That would be quite dull. If he gives a better enchanted item then you can at least de-enchant it and use the enchantment on something you like. Likewise gold is leveled because getting 500 gold at level 1 is excessive, and 50 gold at level 50 is silly.

I do agree that they should change master-level chests to always include a piece of high-level armour like ebony/elven to make those 30 lockpicks worthwhile lol. And I do think that you should not find high-level armour and weapons in every chest when your are on a high level. They should just make it enchanted iron/steel/nordic/dwemmer weapons/armour depending on the ruin you are exploring

Skyrim's addition to scaling is the fact that bandit forts and rogue mages lock at the level you first visited them. So at level 1 they'll be on level 1, at 6 they'll be 6, but if you return at level 20 on the same game you will thrash them. Lastly, dragons are scaled because no one is going to wait until level 80 to start the main quest. Bethesda could not make the dragons constantly on level 80, as no one would be able to kill them. The side effect is that early dragons you fight can and will get pummeled by giants and mammoths, which is both funny and sad.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:14 pm

Agreed. Frankly I was hoping Beth would take a cue from Oblivion's most famous mod, OOO, and kill level-scaling but apparently not. Scaled quest rewards only encourage the player to stay away from quests until high levels.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:42 pm

The complaints about level scaling are easy to fix in my opinion,

basically instead of going to a campa t low levela nd find bandits appropriate to your level (in iron armor etc.) and then coming back to the camp at high level and find bandits appropriate to your level (now in glass armor etc.),
you will find weak bandits at low level but when you get back there at a higher level you will find a different more powerful mob instead of bandit.

Problem solved, noone can complain about bandits suddenly and magically getting glass armor since the new mob is specific to high levels. (Like I don't know Altmer rogues or something)

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:54 pm

In a roleplaying game, the game world should never deign to suit the life of the character. The character should grow according to the confines of the game world (and if it's done right, it should never really be "confined".) I can only surmise that people who think Oblivion/Skyrim style level scaling is a good idea don't really want to roleplay at all. They just want an arcade style romp in an open sandbox world.

As to the opening question: "I hate level scaling, why don't they just get rid of it?" I imagine the answer has something to do with there being a lot of people who just want an arcade style romp in an open sandbox world.

And I have to assume you have extremely limited experience with roleplaying systems because a tiny minority of them features unscaled worlds. Literally, it's basically only D&D. There's a lot more to roleplaying than number inflation, and roleplaying games are not mere numeric egoboosters.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:37 pm

IMO in an open world game, I want to do things I like to do on the moment I like to do it. If I choose to enter a much to difficult dungeon for my current level but manage to defeat the extra strong monster inside, I want some 'respect'. That means I want to get an item from that monster, and later on in the game don't want to be 'punished' for the fact I got that item to early level. It just doesn't make sense. I agree mobs don't have to be scaled, I want to be defeated by a strong mob and later come back and give it hell... but they surely need to do something about the item scaling thingy.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:33 am

First off, i personally don't like level scaling either, and i mean Oblivions kind of scaling. Skyrim is nothing like that though, all the mobs in Skyrim have set levels, i.e. Giants are level 32 all the time, Bandit Marauders are level 25 & the highest type of bandit in the game. Dragons are level 10, the next type Blood Dragons are 20 so on & so forth.

The only thing is, that when you level you start to see more types of mobs based on your level and below, & the same goes for equipment. Dungeons though have set level ranges, Mzulft for example is a level 18 dungeon so should be quite tough if you trekked all the way over to it at the beginning of the game. Most of the dungeons around Whiterun are low level which can be expected since its the nearest capital to where you start the game.

So basicaly the game does scale, but nothing like Oblivion which was awful. Once you pass level 25 you will not see a higher type of bandit than a Marauder, animals don't go past about level 20 with a Cave Bear being the highest of that category. Undead on the other hand, have types all the way up to 50 same goes for Dragons. So one thing's for sure, you will never see a level 50 Bandit, Wolf or Screever. With proper level scaling you would.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:58 am

To the OP: Morrowind had a lot of level scaling. If you ever opened the CS you'd know, the game was littered with leveled creature list and most crates and such had leveled loot.

It IS a requirement for an open world. Fallout: New Vegas was hardly an open world it forced you to go certain ways actually and was littered with invisisble walls. Level scaling is a necessary evil and Skyrim does it decently, but there's always room for improvement.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:27 pm

I'm looking forward to a mod where people have actually sat down and thought about what should be where in the game world.

This right here is the perfect quote with regards to why I prefer level scaling in a game like this.

As soon as you remove level scaling someone has to look at the world and decide what goes where.

As soon as someone decides what goes where they have decided when you are allowed to go there.

And now we have yet another game, exactly the same as all the others where someone has sat down and decided where you need to go and when.

No thanks!

I understand that this is a personal thing. Some people prefer the zoned levels approach. But there's room for both and zoned games are far more common..Skyrim doesn't need it and we don't need another one.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:09 pm

It IS a requirement for an open world. Fallout: New Vegas was hardly an open world it forced you to go certain ways actually and was littered with invisisble walls. Level scaling is a necessary evil and Skyrim does it decently, but there's always room for improvement.

This is also spot on .

The thing is level scaling is kind of counter-intuitive and I totally get why some people don't like it (I hated it when I first encountered it). But the alternatives are zoned levelling, minimal character development (as you see in more combat based open world games) or scaling missions within a static world (as you'd see in GTA type games). None of those would work well in a game like Skyrim.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:04 pm

Oh really? I played it not that long ago and I remember higher level enemies showing up on roads and stuff when I gOt higher level. What do you call that? It didn't have loot scaling. Also morrowind everyone complained about how it was too hard at low levels and to easy at high levels. Now people like you are complaining about the solution. In conclusion it's here to stay. It sells more games (fact) and it makes for a better experience if done right like in skyrim, new Vegas, and fallout 3. If you don't like it , I suggest avoiding future Bethesda games.

Also Oscuros overhaul had level scaling. In fact te level scaling in his mod was quite similar to skyrim. Why do you think he said it doesn't need an overhaul. You whiners never stop and I can't wait till you stop playing elder scrolls and let the series move on.

Morrowind definitely had leveled scaling for NPCs/monsters and loot. I was a bit surprised to see someone use Daedric ruins as an example of how Morrowind didn't scale - if you went near them at low level, there'd be scamps and I forget what else and at high enough level there'd be winged twilights, golden saints, atronachs, etc. Many things didn't scale, such as the Dremora Lords who'd spawn if you took offerings from the Daedric shrines - they'd kill you very quickly if you weren't clever or high level. I seem to recall that Dwemer ruins had some scaling (spiders and sphere centurions at lower levels, the larger robots at higher levels), and of course blighted creatures didn't show up until you were level 10 or so.

A large number of stock containers in Morrowind came with leveled loot inside as well, and these containers would respawn the loot - which made them terrible places to store your stuff, as your stuff would vanish.

If you go into the Morrowind TES Construction Kit, leveled spawns appear as "ninja monkeys". They're all over the place. It's nowhere near on the scale of Oblivion, and is probably less than Skyrim, but it's definitely there.

Edit to add: Also, anyone who pointed out that Morrowind's less scaled model prompted complaints that Morrowind was too easy after a certain level are totally correct. The game was super easy to trivialize because the quest stuff was not typically leveled.

Also, the majority of caves, tombs, and ruins were leveled, as were most of the open world spawns. This didn't mean that everything you met would be easy or your level, there'd be a mixture. But at higher levels - to a point - you'd get stronger enemies.

There were mods that extended this and made the game challenging at higher levels. How? By adding more leveled spawns and increasing the range of existing leveled spawns.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:55 pm

Gear that is affected by your level should scale with your level. That's about it.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:25 am

i completely agree, level scaling is bad.
the game should be big enough to hold different areas of different level variety and still not be linear. you get around the problem of potentially being too strong by having elite areas for end game.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:21 am

Skyrim, though less than Oblivion, still has too much level scaling. It's fine for some encounters to be scaled, but in every dungeon?? Bosses especially. The ultimate bad guy at the end of the long quest chain shouldn't be just as difficult at level 5 as he is at level 40.

There should be way more non-scaled enemies. I know what to expect going into a dungeon, so I don't feel the need to do my best. But if there were, say, a few lv60 bosses in the game, then I might go in with a little concern lol it's important that parts of the world outclass me early in the game.

When I found my first piece of dragonscale armor in random loot, I was genuinely disheartened. In that one moment, Skyrim lost half its wonder to me

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:53 pm

Represent since 1994

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:40 pm

As far as i can see, no level scaling of any kind would mean the world becoming meaningless as you leveled up, with eventually everything one-shottable and no reason to continue playing.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:59 pm

Why don't they remove level scaling? Because it is an Open-World RPG, not a Not-as-open-as-we-want-you-too-think RPG.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:20 am

To be fair, why should YOU be the only one in skyrim that get's better (scales) lol? Once a weak bandit always a weak bandit..? logic? IMO dragons should scale aswell!

What's the fun in a game where you can one hit everything? Where's the challenge?

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:16 pm

Level scaling seems close to perfect as it can get for an Elder Scrolls game. Dragons are a bit weak but overall I think they nailed it with Skyrim. Bandits never get very challenging that I've seen and I've got 75 hours in at level 30 something. And I'm only wearing elven armor and elven weapons. But I destroy spiders, wolves, bears, saber cats... about the only thing challenging are other humans right now, which feels about right to me. Marauders are kind of tough here and there, but bandits still die easily. Giants are still a little tough, but not too hard with some arrows and shouts before they reach you, they are killable. It plays nice, feels like OOO without any mods installed so I can't complain.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:27 pm

i completely agree, level scaling is bad.
the game should be big enough to hold different areas of different level variety and still not be linear. you get around the problem of potentially being too strong by having elite areas for end game.

Yes. And speaking of end game content where are the raids!

jk

This still doesn't work for me. "Zones" are still linear.

At what level can I walk to ***** and start the Theives' Guild quests? At what level will these quests become too trivial to get any enjoyment out of? If I get bored half way through and decide to go on a dungeon bash do I need guide to find one at the right level? If I find some dungeons and encounters on the way can I save them until later or am I forced to do them now if I don't want to level them?

I wouldn't play a game like this. I have zero interest in it. Level scaling isn't good or bad. It just is. And you either like it (or more specifically you like the kind of world it allows) or don't.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:29 pm

Guys, have you ever played old rpg like might and magic?!
There is absolutely NO need of levelling !
There are dungeons and areas of different importance and power, which are full of different monsters. Easy.
If I know that those zones and dungeons are impossible at level 40 I simply avoid them till I can beat the boss inside.
It's much more funny and encouraging playing this way, you can try to beat stronger opponents at the beginning with great battles and focus on the main story too...