Jim Hawkins: You talk as if you are sitting on the One Truth. This is your opinion, and I highly disagre with you. Oblivion was a very good RPG. Certainly not perfect, but it was very good. Things like "decent dialogue options" and "good story" is subjective, I personally liked both. As for your other points, that are what YOU want to call a game a good RPG. You do not sit on the one true way of doing RPGs.

Lol wouldn't it be funny to start every sentence with " my opinion is..."? The forums would be full of it. So let's just skip that part and consider common sense that every affirmation is the writer's point of view.

It's very easy to write "I think that...". It's easy to mistake "Yes, it's a bad RPG" for being something else than just one guy's opinion.

I really cannot understand why people who played Morrowind can complain so much on Oblivion. Do you not remember how ******* annoying that game could be? Oh sure the atmosphere was A+, there was so much content that you could play the game for years and still not figure out all to do and the story/culture was very intriguing. But the gameplay was so bad. The combat was horrible, NPC interaction was messy and the quests were just about as linear as they get. The thing that kept that game alive was because you couldn't really imagine the gameplay to be better and just accepted it and instead focused on the good sides which were absolutley amazing.

So what changed?
Oblivion had a good (like B+ or whatever) atmosphere, alot of content (just not as much as Morrowind) and the story/culture was acceptable (but not that good, I admit). But they made the gameplay Entertaining. Combat wasn't something you button-smashed your way through but was actually something fun to do. And stealth! Do you Morrowind-players remember the stealth system from Morrowind? No? Because it was so non-existant. And the lockpick system, gosh I hated that and I loved Oblivion's. Dark Brotherhood vs Morag Tong, do I even need to ask? (for those who don't have much experience with this: In the Morag Tong you walked up to your target, killed it and then gave the guards a little note that got you free. In the Dark Brotherhood you sneaked around, planning carefully and then executing the kill with your heart raising, hoping that you got away with it) And NPC interaction changed much for the better making characters that you could actually tell the difference between and that felt alive(-ish). And the quests actually got a little (a LITTLE) C&C in 'em. Hell, Oblivion was a massive gameplay improvement compared to Morrowind and the only thing we miss from Morrowind was the fact that it had a Better environment, while Oblivion only had a Good environment. The problem with Oblivion in turn was some irritations in the leveling/leveling-scaling/skill/attribute-system (and an overall weak game that was infamous for crashing, sorry Beth but that's just how it was).

And then what happened? Fallout 3 happened, and they fixed the problems that had surfaced in Oblivion. Naturally new problems surfaced, which will be dealt with in Skyrim. (Sorry but I only played through Fallout 3 twice and I don't feel like I know enough to have a say, so I'll just leave it to those who actually played it until it apeared in their dreams at night)

Stop this insane whining on Oblivion - it is on the top 5 of best RPGs of all time in just about everyone's list while Morrowind only reaches the top 10 in most people's list (mine including, because even if I may come forth as a Morrowind-hater I do love that irritating, ****** game) and there's a good reason for this. But hell, it's all opinions. Life is just a dream and we're figments of our own imagination, caused by a drug that the Machines are giving us outside the Matrix by order from the Government, the Corporations and the Illuminati in their conspiracy for world domination.

So instead of nagging at the previous games, anyone feel like taking a shot at what we will be whining about in Skyrim that was So Much Better in Fallout 3 and Oblivion?

Not to overuse this anology or anything (and it's not even mine), but TES is like a cake. I can't speak for Arena or Daggerfall, but Morrowind's sponge was the most delicious sponge any RPG player had ever tasted. The icing, though, was pretty average. Unfortunately, some people couldn't get past the icing and experience the amazing sponge underneath it. Oblivion had the opposite problem. The icing was so smooth, so creamy, so sweet, and everyone was excited to bite into the cake and find out how good the sponge was. Those people who were expecting Morrowind level sponge were disappointed though. Oblivion was extremely well received by icing connoisseurs but the fans of Morrowind's sponge felt let down and couldn't understand why everyone was so hung up on the excellence of the superficial icing.

What Skyrim needs is a blend of the two. It needs improvements in graphics and gameplay on an Oblivion from Morrowind level, but it needs an atmosphere, depth, story and variety the likes of which will make even the staunchest Morrowind advocates bow down in awe. A cake with the perfect icing and the perfect sponge to satisfy all comers.

Yes, exactly. This is my point, and I believe all the other Morrowind fans as well. Take the best of the worlds and combine them, with some completely new stuff as well of course (especially concerning graphics, physics, animations, weather, etc...).

Something I'd like to see as well is more unique landscapes and dungeons. Neither Morrowind or Oblivion succeeded in this. Morrowind had a great variety of different sorts of things... but it lacked greatly in environmental details. Then again this game is old... so that should explain it.

Oblivion sold so much because of 3 factors, from least important to most important
1. it was a nice game
2. it was the sequel of a great game
3. marketing

Agreed.

And to add:
-a good RPG offers, reacts to and rewards&punishes from the choices the player makes in a meaningful way (characterbuild and progression, quest choices etc)

That certainly is lacking in Oblivion and Fallout 3. And New Vegas isn't exactly a shining example either.

As or learned lessons, two words: Broken Steel :ahhh: But i hope that was simply a mishap with XP-based leveling system, and does not effect Bethesda's traditional learn-by-doing system. Right? :unsure:

How do you know that?

Yeah. NV isn't an epitome of it, but it does give a fairly good attempt at it (and succeeds storywise better than most RPGs as of late). What I think Beth should do, is look what NV attempted at and improve further on from there instead from Oblivion or Fallout 3.

Oblivion destroys Morrowind this isn't even a contest but both games do have flaws big ones that I hope are changed for Skyrim.

Good things about Morrowind
Main Quest
Different Factions that you could side with in the main quest
Leveled Items that weren't leveled Scaled
Unique Dungeons
Leveled Enemies
Limited Gold
Limited Fast Travel

Good Things about Oblivion
Good Main Quest
Character Creation that was much better then Morrowind's
Awesome Graphics
The size of the land itself
Dungeons respawned
Items were leveled scaled
The Combat was excellent
You can fast travel anywhere

Bad Things about Morrowind
Limited Fast Travel
Texted Based lines instead of a Voice Actor talking
The Combat was Horrible
Crappy Graphics
Limited Gold
Dungeons didn't respawn
Leveled Enemies
Cliff Racers
You basically have to get the game for PC
Limited Character Creation
Bugs and Glitches

Bad Things about Oblivion
Leveled Scaled Items including quest rewards, the days of getting +3's on the Black Band is done and I hope thats changed in Skyrim.

Level Scaled Enemies including (Censored Goblin Warlords) Only Dungeon Bosses that are human and certain quest bosses should be leveled scaled and even then they should have a minimum level to start out at. Hopefully that changes in Skyrim.

Every Maruarder and Bandit having the best armor of their class. Hopefully thats tweaked in Skyrim
Bugs and Glitches

The Leveling sytem itself as theres no point in going past Level 30 hopefully thats tweaked a little bit in Skyrim

Your character can get broken really easily so get rid of some of the broken items for Skyrim no more Neckless Of Swords.

Hearing the same voice actor get repetive after a while even if they're good. Hopefully we will have different voice actors for Skyrim and not just one actor for two races like in Oblivion.

Character Creation had flaws especially if you moved the wrong slider and screwed up the face. Hopefully the Character creation is updated and we get even more options for creating a face.

I get seriously depressed when I read comments like this. Especially when I can breeze through Starcraft 1, Half-Life 1, and Daggerfall without blinking an eye.

I picked all of these up for the first time this year.

If you want flawed gameplay, try Arena. When it takes half an hour to walk from one side of a bar to another, that's flawed. But if you can't take a combat system that misses sometimes...

Wow.

Anyway, Oblivion was great, but Shivering Isles and Fallout 3 were better in terms of depth. So yes, they've already 'learned their lesson'.

Yes, people often forget SI as well. The landscapes in that were amazing and proved that BGS is capable of doing fantastic fantasy scenery if they so desire. We just have to hope that they've heard us clamouring on here for more fantasy.

Yeah, I've actually played most of the older RPGs in the last 2-4 years, never had a problem with the graphics. I won't comment on the gameplay, because frankly, some of the older games had superior gameplay mechanics which for some reason newer games aren't incorporating.



Well I can't really reply with anything here since you and I basically just stated our opinion on something without actually asking for it to be challenged. I can play Oblivion and view it as a game on its own. I find it a fairly entertaining game, especially with mods. In fact I like it! However, as an RPG, it doesn't even compete with other RPGs which I consider classics (even if I played most of them after I played Oblivion).

--

I still need to play Shivering Isles. I've heard good things about it.

It's got a great story and some fantastic scenery. The fetch quests get a bit tiresome towards the end and it's obviously still Oblivion at its core, but it switches up the art style and 'feel' of the game superbly. I'd definitely recommend it.

If Skyrim is gonna be a game that combines the best of Morrowind with the best of oblivion, and with a few advances of its own, then its going to be the best game ever!

That isn't exactly a fair statement to make. Making a game that is broad and easily accessible by the masses is not the same thing as making the best possible Elder Scrolls game. In fact, all the ways the game suffered in relation to Morrowind were a direct result of this. Am I really the only one who agrees with the OP?

No.

SOE turns a profit on Star Wars Galaxies, EA sells millions of titles, and Obsidian is still allowed to exist. Game journalists talked about Dragon Age like it was the second coming and Adam Sessler will show adoration for any game if the publisher bribes him with a female.


Let's hope Bethesda doesn't join the above and focuses on making a game that appeals to their fans first, and the World of Warcraft playing masses second. Oblivion had some serious design flaws due in no small part to its console friendliness and mass appeal factor. Oblivion was and is a great game, but it could have been so much better. I think this is really at the core of those who have been holding Morrowind up high. Let me get lost in the world, confuddle me with a ton of skills, give me books to read and only then do we want you to make horrible combat systems to appease the instant gratification club.

Throw a little Morrowind in, mix it with some Oblivion, throw in a little Fallout repellent and then bake it in a EA oven. Voila! You have a game that keeps everyone happy.

Unfortunately, the ways that the Elder Scrolls series suffered from Morrowind to Oblivion were the same ways the Fallout series suffered from Fallout 2 to Fallout 3. Sure it is an improvement over Oblivion, but certainly not indicative of the trends necessary to bring the series back on track. Cool that they nerfed some of their most blatant errors such as the rampant level scaling, but removing a handful of the multitudinous missteps of the previous installment is hardly what I would call an evolution in the series.

I do not have the patience to do it again, but I wanted to comment your post line to line and prove that except for engine improvement which is the trend of time, on all other aspect of the games, Morrowind was a better game, as I have done it before.

And this is totally related to who is the player.

If you like to be challenged, then Morrowind is the better game, otherwise, Oblivion is for you.

I have done it before and I might do it again, if I get into the mood, so there.

BLAM ???
What a :swear: comment, morrowind was that already way before crappy Oblivion directed by consolish weak minded market.
All that wen t bad in Oblivion is direct result of console market complain like:
Too hard, we don t know what to do, why have i to walk.
BLAM ???
IF BLAM it was, then there wouldn t be so many freaking MODS LEADING freaking OBLIVION back to MORROWIND GAMEPLAY!!!!!
And there weren t so many people that after playing Oblivion loved Morrowind twice fold combat aside !!!!
BLAM ??? LOL!!!

LOL, patetic, but your endowed to your opinion.

Good things about Morrowind
Main Quest (awesome)
Different Factions that you could side with in the main quest
Leveled Items that weren't leveled Scaled
Unique Dungeons
Leveled Enemies
Limited Gold
Limited Fast Travel
You forgot:
Interwebed side plots with main plots.
Non agressive misisons (you do not have to kill to complete it)

Good Things about Oblivion
Good Main Quest (Character Creation that was much better then Morrowind's (to be expected, and nothing that really matter until you play looking at your own face)
Awesome Graphics (To be expected, Morrowind was awesome for its time, this shouldn t even be here)
The size of the land itself (Main land smaller than morrowind, and WAYYYYYY les interesting))
Dungeons respawned (Since when grinding exactling the same people over and over is fun)
Items were leveled scaled (LOL that was the WORST PART EVER IN OBLIVION)
The Combat was excellent
You can fast travel anywhere (Not imposed but sh!tty)

Bad Things about Morrowind
Limited Fast Travel (Optional but awesome feature)
Texted Based lines instead of a Voice Actor talking (Voice acting was painful in OBLIVION, and 75% of the voice acting was IRRELEVANT RANDOM SENTENCES)
The Combat was Horrible
Crappy Graphics (You sir are an :swear: comparing an half a decade old game to a "new one")
Limited Gold (Awesome, take decisions and suffer consequences)
Dungeons didn't respawn (Awesome grinding over and over ain t fun)
Leveled Enemies (Its god in OBIVION and BAD in Morrowind ? LOL at least it was least clear and less game stopper)
Cliff Racers (Awesome PITA)
You basically have to get the game for PC (I wish Oblivion was that way, wouldn t have degraded in so many aspect from configuring control to quest quality etc)
Limited Character Creation (LIMITED ? How you can create your own class exactly like Oblivion!!!!)
Bugs and Glitches (Yeah because Oblivion had NONE!!!!!)

Bad Things about Oblivion
Leveled Scaled Items including quest rewards, the days of getting +3's on the Black Band is done and I hope thats changed in Skyrim.

Level Scaled Enemies including (Censored Goblin Warlords) Only Dungeon Bosses that are human and certain quest bosses should be leveled scaled and even then they should have a minimum level to start out at. Hopefully that changes in Skyrim.

Every Maruarder and Bandit having the best armor of their class. Hopefully thats tweaked in Skyrim
Bugs and Glitches

The Leveling sytem itself as theres no point in going past Level 30 hopefully thats tweaked a little bit in Skyrim

Your character can get broken really easily so get rid of some of the broken items for Skyrim no more Neckless Of Swords.

Hearing the same voice actor get repetive after a while even if they're good. Hopefully we will have different voice actors for Skyrim and not just one actor for two races like in Oblivion.

Character Creation had flaws especially if you moved the wrong slider and screwed up the face. Hopefully the Character creation is updated and we get even more options for creating a face.

Limited configurable keys compared to morrowind

Combat rendered all combat skill useless and a waste

Shoddy enchanting

Inferior spell creation

Main quest can be completed LVL2

Sense of urgency unfullfilled in the main quest, you can ignore all and the land will never perish portal opens and nothing happens, no invasion, no destruction nothing...

No side plot interwebbed with the main plot

few lore, lore breaker game

Small land, bland land, comon land, unimaginative setting

Bland [censored] characters due to failed radial engine, no diference beetween nord imperial, races etc, all the same bland uninterested same behavior

Main plot straightforward, you re the hero from mark zero,

Copy pasted dungeons, copy pasted land, copy pasted characters,

No sense of reward throught lvling as ALL ennemies are always your lvl with always best gear

Mindless kill missions for 90 % of the time

Dungeon respawning, at least too fast.

Your threated as a Moron by handhanding devices, no way to avoid them as mission description and place are shoddily described

LVL system killed and rendered unimportant by lvl scaling

Combat rendered boring at high lvl as it is a matter of hit point and not skill hit the monster 500 time and he ll die.. boring

Main characters won t die, so youre no way to fail, no responsability for your acts

I could go on but i already made a trend way back called :
73 reasons why Oblivion fails.

But remember, a lot of them had worse. Take Half-Life 1 - I've just been playing Blue Shift, and I have not got a clue what to do. I'm just pacing a bunch of corridors before eventually going to a walkthrough.

And what are these mechanics? Because there might be a reason for them not being in modern games. It was simple to code about 64 pixels that represented what you wanted them to back then, but now you have to sort out graphics (one of the toughest parts of a game to program nowadays), voice acting, physics - why do you think there aren't any airships in modern Final Fantasy?