One of the changes from Morrowind to Oblivion that I feel people took an issue with was the change from journal notes and general directions for quests to a compass and map marker that led people directly to the next quest point. It changed the entire feel of questing which led some people to become dissatisfied with the game experience, and for some this was their main issue (like mine.)

I am not asking, or even expecting, the map/compass markers to go away with Skyrim. The current system makes sense. It allows for a wider variety of gamers to play the game, and lets people who think journal notes are too tedious bypass that issue, as well as ensures that people won't get stuck on a quest due to bad notes. However, I feel that there should be an option to choose either. I understand that radiant questing poses an issue, but if stock location descriptions were given so that they could be interchangeable in journal notes it seems that it wouldn't be a terribly difficult issue. For example, if you had to assassinate someone in a randomly chosen cave, the journal notes could be as barebones as "You will find {person x} at {cave y}. {Cave y} is rumored to be {directons to cave y}." The game system is already creating these variables for your character, so it doesn't seem hard to give the player quest notes with these variables. It gives players the ability to choose how they quest. I understand modders could do this, but I'd bet money that the dev team that created Radiant Story could implement this far quicker, and with more precision, than a random modder with no prior knowledge of the system.

Lastly, separate from the questing, there needs to be a toggle that gets rid of the Points of Interest on the marker. It may make sense for cities (hearing the noise/smelling or seeing smoke), but applying it to anything else takes away the mystery of exploration and changes it to "Where will I run directly to next?" Finding a cave should be a surprise and a reward for risking it in the wilderness, not given to you by being a half mile away from it on the main road.

Does anyone else agree with me on this? If the dev team doesn't end up implementing this, are there some people willing to make a mod to create quest notes? I don't have experience in modding, but I could do most of the grunt work in writing the quest notes.

i think they could simply go with the route red dead redemption went and intead of givin u a marker they giv u a region to find the objective. and its already been said that dependin on how the quest giver feels about u they can give more/less details which i think means the rdr route might be the way they went since the 'region' could be bigger if less details are given and smaller if more details are given.


on the note of points of interest; yeah i think they should get rid of them cause it pretty much makes all the room between the points to seem to be jus 'filler' instead of an actual place to look around.

I don't remember their being any problem with the quest notes in Oblivion. I always remember them explaining sufficiently what I need to do and where I need to go based on the information expressed through dialogue and things like that. The dialogue alone was enough to go on.

Otherwise, I agree that you should be able to toggle map markers and things like that on and off. Just a simple check-box in the corner of the map and it would simple. Same for the points of interest, as you said.

While having something like Red Dead Redemption would be awesome, the game is pretty close to completion. I don't see drastically changing the quest system to be a possibility at this point. I DO see tacking on some journal notes and a toggle for quest markers on the compass far easier to implement, and one that also gives people that "Morrowind" feel.

The Points of Interest toggle would be great regardless of quests.

"Buy a house in Skingrad"? The quest marker was the ONLY indication that something was very wrong with this quest. It only happens if the Orc you're supposed to talk to decides to do a cliff dive from the bridge.

The quest/dialogue system in FONV doesn't store anything from the actual dialogue, it's fully based on quest markers and a short version description. If you're not careful, it's easy to loose some important information here if quest markers are modded away.

So I *do* actually prefer to solve anything using dialogue, journal, and own notes. But I want to be able to toggle on quest markers when I give up, or quest has gone bad and I need to confirm it.

Exactly. Having a toggle allows for everyone to be satisfied, and it doesn't seem that hard to do. If each part of Radiant Story had its own location description (so when it said "go to cave x" cave x has its stock description on how to get there), it'd be extremely easy to create cookie cutter journal notes that were functional. It's not like Morrowind's notes were very detailed, but it still created a sense of mystery and exploration. If you get lost, you can always toggle back the markers so you can continue on your way.

the compass was toggeable in a sense, you could just chose a quest different from the one you are working on

also I kinda see why you say about the map markers, but if you dont have them there could be the greatest place in the entire game, the absolute best cave, and not find it, so it basically doesn't exist to you

also I dont think you could have them togglable, if they were you wouldn't be able to fast travel so that goes along with it

The problem with Oblivion is that there was often no alternative to using the compass. If you were told to go speak to someone out in the middle of the woods, the quest-giver never gives you directions, so without the compass the chances of finding your target are slim.

I'd personally love if Bethesda went to the effort of adding a little extra dialogue for quests that would allow us to search for the treasure/dungeon/NPC we're looking for. I can't see this happening however.

I seriously preferred Morrowind's approach to Oblivion. Oblivion was just so dumbed down and streamlined it was ridiculous. Fallout did a better job, but it was still very unsatisfying to get through a quest. Whats wrong with a little thinking when it comes to questing? It's not asking people to solve a rubix cube, it's very easy to follow instructions that i easily did when i was 12 and played Morrowind for the first time. If they would consider making it like Morrowind in hardcoe mode, but adding the objective compass to casual mode, i think that would solve a lot of problems right there. This was one of the little things that added up to make Oblivion seem so much smaller than Morrowind, no sense of adventure- Oblivion handed everything to you on a silver platter.

It's hard for me to like Bethedia as a company because with every installment they move more and more mainstream, and further and further away from the fanbase. Maybe i'll be proven wrong with Skyrim, but i honestly don't expect any of it. Skills have been dumbed down just as badly as Oblivion dumbed down Morrowind's skill set.
Hard-core mode:

No fast travel outside of special services and spells.
No compass that has markers on it.

These two things would make the game feel so much bigger,

FONV don't save anything from the dialogue? strange as they have the text for the subtitles anyway. But yes lots of locations in Oblivion is only marked by the quest marker, you got no or a very general description of the location.
I don't see this change as we now get random locations for quests, and I prefer the random locations.

However I don't see the point of quest markers inside dungeons, the Azuras star quest is the prime example here. small dungeon, five quest markers for the vampires and the markers move around. if you have to find a small object give a decent description or place it on an enemy or in a container.

Don't really need the quest compass, being able to set your own target on the map would have the same function and be more flexible. But I also don't see the problem with marking a quest location on the map, the quest giver know the location so he can mark it. However as other says it might not be totally accurate or point to a nearby landmark like in the madstone quest.

Well, if it makes you feel any better, the impression I got from all the information released, is that that information will no longer appear on the compass at all. It sounded like if you want that information, you'll now need to check your map.


Well I hate to break it to you, but with how well Obliviopn did, their fanbase is now the mainstream.

Well, that's the point of exploration! That super amazing, wonderful cave gets to be found through actively searching for it. I remember having discussions with friends about Morrowind, where they'd hand me notes saying "take this road, then veer off the path to a certain point and you'll find this cave." and I'd be finding things that I never knew existed. We even made sure to give the notes a certain level of vagueness about them. Making these things not readily apparent gives the game so much more value ***to a certain class of gamer.*** For those who want this information given to them, having a toggle lets everyone win. While I know expecting journal notes to allow for questing without the compass is a long shot, this seems pretty reasonable to ask for even with the game having a quickly approaching release date.

To clarify - on the compass there will be little indicators that told you about a nearby point of interest. When you got close enough to the location it gave you the location on the map. All I am asking for is to get rid of the heads up on the compass. When you get to a location, it should still be marked on your map. I am not trying to bring in an argument about fast travel, at least in this topic. Only the ability to let caves/hideouts/secluded buildings/shrines etc. not be hinted at in the compass, and to instead force the player to find them (if they choose to do so through toggling them off the compass.)

At least for quests -while you could choose a different quest, you couldn't know where to go for a lot of quests without having it shown to you. Another Fallout example (I know there are tons of Oblivion examples, and trust me - I played that game to death - but I just did a runthrough of FO3 and it's fresh on my mind) (SPOILERS - if you haven't played FO3 don't read): in the game you're asked to find your father in a vault. The game mentions that the vault he is hidden underneath a gas station. While I was getting this quest I thought "Holy hell, this is going to be a blast to do. I'll get to search the wasteland through all the buildings until I find it." And then I get the quest information, and a quest marker (both on the map and compass) pinpoint me directly to the exact gas station the vault is hidden in. Furthermore, when I'm in the building it directs me right to the hidden stairwell that leads me to the vault. It had potential to really be a blast. There could have even been some detective work, maybe searching through a library or other place to find Vault-Tec information. Instead, I was railroaded to the vault itself.

The main sell for Bethesda's open-world RPGs is that you get to explore the world. When exploration is kept on a narrow track, can you really call it exploration?

I'm sorry, but not everyone's the [censored] Batman.

I'm sorry, but how ... how does that tie in this discussion?

you sir are made of win I agree 100%

keep the stupid GPS but give me directions in the journal so that I can turn GPS off forever.

If one turns of the journal, as long as you get the really specific directions like you did in Morrowind, I will be extremely happy. The journey was half the fun of those quests.

(ie; walk northwest from the gate until you hit a bridge, when crossing the bridge follow the steps west until a rock the shape of an ogre appears. Turn northeast around the bend and pass three trees, a giant nirnroot, and swamp.) etc...

Some quests it makes sense having the map be explicitly marked. However, things like the vampire cure quest? "Oh, this witch lives somewhere near the Colboro river." The map marker? Leads you right to her. Why was there a map marker with accurate precision to begin with, when the person had no clue where she lived other than near this river? It's things like this that brought the game down for a number of people.

Also, we're going under the pretense that everyone is A) literate and capable of topography, and B) there are objective maps that everyone in the area uses. The directions over map markers makes sense because it guarantees (in the logic of living in a pretty low-tech high magic world) that heading down a road and then following the coast can never change, but the map you bought off some yahoo could be different than what the quest giver is operating on, if the quest giver even has a map to begin with.

Anyone else care to chime in?