and...? - what was the problem and how did you solve it?
we?re all interested, you see? :hubbahubba:

I remember BB fixed seams by doing some weird [censored] with normals. Since the model is split into parts you have to change the normals so they still meet up with each other.

The major malfunction I had was not having weight mapping. After copying the bone weights from the BB model to my new model everything showed up except for the right hand (which I'd somehow skipped once I got rolling. I fixed that by duplicating the left hand scaling to -1 on the x axis, repositioning and copying bone weights to the right hand. Then a bit of renaming. Once I get the vertex colors corrected I'll post pictures of the new body. For a texture I'm currently using the UV map so I can post a link to that.



hmmm. I'll have to look into that. I did notice that the elbow joint has some hidden surfaces that I assumed where there due to gaps in the model.

You're exporting this from Blender, right? You don't need to mess with the normal seams yourself, there's an exporter option to do it automatically (something about smoothing normal seams between meshes... it's not hard to find anyway).

Couldn't you also rig the body as one mesh, then use materials to split it upon export? Then wouldn't normals still meet up with each other perfectly?
BB does have an overlapping elbow on the forearm mesh at the forearm/upper arm seams btw, I'm not quite sure why it's there though.

quoting Axel:


Which sounds like more fun than trying to adjust normals on split meshes

After much research and even more trial and error I finally learned how to do this. But in doing so my UV mapps got lost. So once I get the model UV mapped again it'll be ready for the next test load.

Edit: I've got an offer from Illuminiel to do the textures. The results should be better than anything I could produce.

Sweet success. Almost.

Pictures up at GHF.

Next step is a male body.

Are you attempting to fit the new body to BB shapes? It looks very similar but with heavier torso. I see problems with fingers skinning, hand body clipping, and some UVs. Body is also too big for standard MW heads (head is approximately one eighth of the full body length).

I am curious, how many polygons it has?

Anyhow, great work!

For the testing I just created a new race with base height/weight settings and copied a stock bretton head. The model has very similar proportions to the BB model. I lengthened the legs to match BB proportions so the head size caught me off gaurd. I suspect it's due to not setting the height/weight of my race. The clipping of the fingers is going to need to be adjusted. I'm not sure how I'm going to resolve that at this point.

polygon count: 10,102 this model is not for light weight machines.

We are all learning here from each other and I DO know what hard work you have performed. Please, do not see any offensive in my words.

10000 polygons that's much too much, e.g. maximum polygons number for Half-Life 2 characters is 7000 (Valve is more advanced game engine than the one used for MW). That should be significantly reduced. I have a suggestion to start some Dr. Frankenstein's work: hands are "not that important" but they are "eating" a lot of polygons. So, they (and probably feet) in you model could be replaced by LizTail's modification of BB hands (adjust wrists/calves to fit them).

My other problem is your UVs.

1. Straightforward plane mapping results in serious texture stretching problems. Have you seen your UVs with checker map? Usually cylinder mapping is used for arms/legs/body. It has only one UV seam (plane ?two) and definitely less stretching.
IMHO one of the best body UVs layout has Poser Daz3D Victoria 3/Michael 3:

http://www-cache.daz3d.com/store/item_file/1558/Seam_2.html

Blender has powerful UV tools: angle base flattening, seam cutting tool, UV relax script, UV stretch display, multiple UV layers that can be used for detailed decal texture maps (NifTools scripts support that) and others, see:

http://www.blender.org/development/release-logs/blender-242/uv-unwrapping/
http://www.blender.org/development/release-logs/blender-246/uv-editing/
http://www.blender.org/development/release-logs/blender-243/multiple-uv-s-and-vertex-colors/

I would definitely try to use these tools to improve UVs

2. The way you are using texture template space: there are too many empty useless areas. Check how compact are BB UV templates: nearly every pixel of the square is in use.


A request to texturers: one of the problems of all known to me BB textures is texture seams e.g. in inner legs areas. Please try to reduce texture seams.

For what it's worth, if the body is really smooth and realistic looking, then I say keep the quality even if it's at the expense of more polygons. A lot of people that cut their work back a few years ago are now nameless modders because their mods have been surpassed. Hardware improves so quickly that what might not run smoothly today will run just fine tomorrow. If nothing else, preserve your highest quality version and release a cut-down version as a "lite" release.

Just my two cents on the matter. Thanks for the effort, I was hoping someone would get to this. Now if only bump-mapped skin could be sorted out.

Hardware will not rescue the outdated MW game engine: addition of just few regular BB NPCs in a game scene significantly reduces fps on any rig.

I am concerned with the poly count as well. In my initial test I consoled in 11 naked NPC's using this mesh in a small cell (Eldafire's house) and started combat with them. Adding the first NPC had significant load time (about 2 min). I dropped from a fps of 54 with 0 NPC down to 44 with 11 fighting NPCs. How well it'll work in a cell like Balmora with Balmora Expanded, CoM, NoM and MCA loaded remains to be seen.

The hands have some severe bone weight problems and the use of LizTail's modifications could very well address both concerns. I'll definately look into this.

I've also begun work on the male body. The nueter male is looking to be around 6100 poly's give-or-take 200. I figured men can be a bit more blocky where women need to be rounder.

My other problem is your UVs.



My intent was to make the UV mapping easier to texture. The first draft errs on the UV map side. The results I've gotten from blender's various unwrapping methods are generally bad with severe distortion. This is hardly an area of expretise for me.



I greatly appriciate your constructive critique (I wouldn't even consider it criticism). I will be addressing these issues as I learn more.

edit: New pictures up at GHF

http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss132/Thissguy_Mannperson/ThissguysBodyModel.jpg I like what I see here o.o I definately can't wait to see it in game...

I'm gonna keep track of this thread ;D keep up the good work!

PS, I love the paws!

Hands are very important to me, especially since I never use 3rd-person viewing. I see my hands whenever I have my weapon out, which is probably 95% of playing time.

um... that's not my mod. The pictures of what I'm working on are at http://www.fliggerty.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2595 on http://www.nicholiathan.com/morrowind/newbody.html.



Yes, hands are important but Axel makes a good point about the poly count. By way of comparison the BB model is approximately 3000 poly's my hands are 3366 poly's that's about the same as the original body with head & hair. I've not adequately stress tested this model but I'm seeing a 20% drop in frame rate from having 11 NPC's in a cell and those are naked.

Encouraged by creative tolerance of Nicholiathan I decided to continue my remarks.
I would like to discuss a very sensitive taste related issue inspired by recent frustrations that I have experienced while playing Dragon Age and Divinity 2 ? body shapes, specifically female.
IMHO, game female body (as well as animations, btw) should not be identical to the one of a man who is suffering from gynecomastia.

The "golden standard" for me at the moment is a free-to-play Korean MMORPG "Requiem Bloodymare". There are four races in the game:

Bartuk: half-beast barbarians.
Turan: humans (typical Korean games model).
Kruxena: synthetic half-dark elf, half machine race.
Xenoa: childish superintellectual race that was definitely inspired by aliens from the movie Mars attacks.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n45/AxelIP/RBRaces1.jpg


RB races have a significant variety of clothes and armor specific for race/gender/classes(specialization).
http://requiem-wiki.org/wiki/Armor_Gallery

Moreover, each race and gender have competently different sets of animations.

I am badly taking screenshots, but believe me in game that looks much better:

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n45/AxelIP/ScreenCapture_2009_05_17_19_04_45.jpg

The game is based on Gembryo engine 20.0.0.4 (same as Oblivion), characters have also shaders. All my attempts to attract attention of our respected programmers to this feature were ignored, they prefer to work on 1000 + 1 variant of grass shader than to challenge something completely new.

Dear Nicholiathan, could you, please, address body shape problem in your outstanding work.

Of coarse hands are very important! I am also playing in the first person view. Therefore I have quoted that remark. I wanted to say that BB hands are very good and can be used. I was mainly talking about third person view hands. There are several difficulties: unlike OB MW third person hands have three fingers and two bones per finger. It is very difficult to align these bones to a five finger mesh without noticeable geometry distortions during animations. I have tried to fix original BB hands several times, LizTail did better job; MW game engine does not have bone LOD (level of details, small ones like fingers are not processes by the game engine when character is in a distance and gamer simply does nor see such small details) feature (OB has). Hence, MW will render these high polygon structures for nothing.

Those RB bodies have waists that are too skinny, IMO, and not my opinion but actual fact: Their legs are too long by almost a foot.

Waists are OK from my point of view. I do not like anatomical realism in games. IMHO shapes should be exaggerated (and I like long legs), "real" body shapes look boring on a game screen.
MW Legs/body proportions we cannot change without redoing all animations. Hence, skeletons will remain fixed.
Actually under "golden standard" I was understanding not particular body shapes but the general race (meshes, animations) artistic design.
I prefer even more "curvy" shapes.

Looks good. Just musing: can't you use the item enchanting effect in Morrowind to create spec/bump maps for these bipeds? I've never really tried it myself, or given a lot of thought for that matter.

You can make them hot and realistic at the same time. My concern with those waists was that there is simply not enough space for internal organs and bone structure to support such a complex organism as a human being.

The mod should be re-named, frumpy old women bodies

Good work though mate

And you? You are welcome!


I have professional knowledge about human anatomy. It IS possible to have all human organs in such body shapes. But I wish you not to see for instance cancer or bulimia (anorexia, severe form of more general - body dysmorphic disorder) patients in terminal stages. Real normal humans are also very different in body shapes.

Human body is very flexible and can be reshaped dramatically:
http://news.softpedia.com/images/news2/The-Giraffe-Women-of-the-Neck-Rings-2.jpg
http://photos.commongate.com/11/41277_f4f4jphmzm_m.jpg
Do not forget such "devices" as corsets or bodybuilders.

But we are talking about GAME fantasy characters, magic....

For unknown reasons environment (reflection) and bump maps are not working in MW with skinned meshes like bodies, clothes, armor. With creatures these maps are working.

I've not noticed them ever work really, I've never seen any bump maps work that's for sure, reflective water is working with Improved Water shader and caustics, but that's about it. No evident bump mapping at all as far as i can see