I think when you do a power attack with a heavy weapon (big axes, big maces, long claymores), it should throw you off balance if it didn't hit the target. If you are good at the skill you will be able to time a second power attack right after the first one without losing balance, e.g. a spin attack.

how do you think?

Edit:
I went to play oblivion again, this time I picked up some heavy blunt weapons to use. I was totally disgusted by how fake it felt in my hand (always used short swords). when I swing a warhammer it's like slow motion. in real life that's not how it works. in real life when you swing a heavy object, you can make it go at a pretty high speed (though not as fast as a dagger), but before you make the next swing, you need to take some time to re-balance yourself, put the weapon in starting position, and swing. therefore, to accurately model a heavy weapon, you need to give it a lot of cool down time rather than make the weapon move slowly.

What oblivion did with heavy weapon is more like swinging a big fan, which is light but moves slow due to air resistance.

I think that's a brillant idea. I mean, when you do a vertical slice with a bigass sword, when it hits the ground you shouldn't be able to just stand up as if nothing happenned, unless you know how to avoid being stuck in the ground.

Still, I'm not sure this'll be implemented. it would be realistic at first, but I think a lot of people would just get away from big weapons because of that. and they were already slow enough in oblivion, we don't really need another reason not to use them

so that's the way I see it anyways

It does sound interesting, provided as ofnir says, the effect is dampened enough so it doesn't get too discouraging.

The same way, I shouldn't be able to get away easily with going against some big-ass daedric armour with my tiny daggers.

well, for balancing purpose, the heavy weapon can be awarded with abilities such as ignoring enemy (light) armor, high damage to their shields, possibility of disarming if the enemy attempt to parry with weapon.

Even the thickest armor have joints to sink your blade into.... :toughninja:

Well at least it should do good damage with sneak attacks.

Yes, that's my point. There should be more specialization : no assassination with a mace and heavy boots, no rushing into a battle with a tiny knife. As a stealthy character, if I want to go up against a daedric-clad guy, my only safe options should be bow or wait 'till he sleeps, or something like that. Play my strengths, sort of.

Or at least make it realistic : as in, I'd have to constantly aim at the face or throat (unprotected areas), or damage the armour with a magical effect first in order to get away with a straightforward fight.

Seriously though...

I went to play oblivion again, this time I picked up some heavy blunt weapons to use. I was totally disgusted by how fake it felt in my hand (always used short swords). when I swing a warhammer it's like slow motion. in real life that's not how it works. in real life when you swing a heavy object, you can make it go at a pretty high speed (though not as fast as a dagger), but before you make the next swing, you need to take some time to re-balance yourself, put the weapon in starting position, and swing. therefore, to accurately model a heavy weapon, you need to give it a lot of cool down time rather than make the weapon move slowly.

What oblivion did with heavy weapon is more like swinging a big fan, which is light but moves slow due to air resistance.

jeeeeeez

I hope the dev gets to read this cuz I think it's very important...

OP.
to accurately model a heavy weapon:
force = mass * acceleration
velocity = acceleration * time
energy(kinetic) = 1/2 mass * velocity^2

;)

that's for during the swing. after the swing you need time to recover and re-position. right?

I mean, forget the science... go grab something long and heavy, like your guitar, and swing it like an axe. and then tell me how it feels.

indeed, and f=ma applies again, only this time instead of the force accelerating the object, the force is decelerating the object. eg:

You swing through an arc of 1 meter towards your target with force F. It looks like you are about to miss, surprised you try to slow the mace down but can muster a force of only 1/2F, then the mace will swing 2 meters before it stops... more or less. And then you need to get back into position and f=ma applies once more!

that's not how you are supposed to swing a heavy weapon though.. an expert can tell you that there's something called "follow-through", which is letting the weapon swing in its course rather than trying to stop it. and then, you turn your body with the weapon's inertia, after a 360 degree turn you strike again. if you look at how oblivion models the warhammer, you'll see there's no way anyone can perform that action in real life.

and I know it's just a game. however, without the correct physics in the animation, the battle won't feel "right".

K,

So you work out how long it takes to turn 360, all the maths is the same

Perhaps the most interesting part of the equations is the fact that it is the Speed of impact that does the damage, less dependent on strength and more on body control, ie agility. Or at least a balance between the two

Anyway, it has been said that things have been improved in order for the weapon to "feel right" during combat. Hopefully something akin to what you suggest has been implemented. Things should certainly be more intuitive.

Maces and hammers should have a more knock back power. Swords you can recover from if not hit through the armor, but a mace or hammer wether it hits the unarmored areas or not should knock back an oponent or flinch him.

Bladed weapons can never cause knockouts or knock back the enemy. But they will be fast and when hit on light or non armored victims they cause great damage.

Also think maces and hammers should have a better chance at knockout and almost impossible not to get a knock out when swung at the enemies head.(this if they added targeted limbs and crippling). Blades would of course do more damage against light armored types and be very fast and nimble to do a stream of attacks.

Maces/hammers should be a bit uneasy with their momentum but when impacted they cause damage and either a flinch/knock back/cripple or knockout or possibly disarm or shatter a shield. Also they could cause a good impact even on heavy armor.


Axe like weapons would be sort of medium in the spectrum and always have a great chance of cribbling a limb by hewing it.

Right, you owe me a guitar.

:biggrin:

To the heavy weapon suggestion: This would be seriously great. Make heavy weapons feel like heavy weapons. ramp up their damage so that they are balanced.

I'm sure some people will whine about the time spent lifting the weapon and regaining balance. This is a sign that the change is working - players would have an actual preference for a given weapon type, not just use whatever they find.

the reason you turn 360 degrees is that after you turn, when you start swinging from 0 position, your weapon already has a speed, and all you need to do is add more speed to it.. and next round will be more speed, and so on.

but yea, you only need enough strength to make the first swing, and subsequent swings will be done with agility so that it doesn't knock off your own head.

still, the point is, the warhammer is [censored] up in oblivion and needs a fix.

And a long warm up period as well. Inertia is just as important as momentum. Hence a slow swing speed for warhammers - modelling a very slow initial and ending attack speed within the limitations of the engine. Possibly they could've got around it with special start/end animations and the new iteration of the series may just do that.

Why not have http://www.trueswords.com/images/prod/c/TS-MEDHAMINF_540.jpg war hammers and great swords instead of lumps of metal on sticks? A real two handed great sword was about as quick as a regular sword since you used both hands and they didn't weigh much more than a longsword. Sure there existed some real heavy weapons in medieval time (like the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFcnbVej1d4 at 4:25) but experienced adventurers wouldn't use such primitive weapons. :tongue:

Realistic warhammers are a pretty specialised bit of kit developed in response to plate armour. They're designed to concentrate force at a small point and are one-handed. They really didn't last long. Fantasy warhammers are just that (although mauls were used to a degree) and this is fantasy after all.

Two-handed weapons can be used in two ways: hands together - powerful but slow for follow-up shot; hands apart - much less damaging but very quick for follow-up shot (better than one-handed, given equal weight). This is something Oblivion got wrong and hopefully will be improved on.

Just watched the 3 parts, it's actually quite interesting. Maybe the developers ought to see this, I think it would be pretty good both for inspiration and realism :toughninja: :foodndrink:

it should be an easy fix

On the one hand I would say yes, and that this was in OB a tiny bit, but it does depend on the kind of attacking you are doing.
With all weapons the attacking has to be fluid, and giant power attacks which leave you off kilter are probably not the best kind. You don't necessarily want to stop your weapon but be able to direct it. [] Additionally, and this is a smaller part, if you are aiming to strike at your opponent you are more likely to stagger than compared to striking through a point.

The animations have always been strike-recoil but I think, in general, the timing from Oblivion was pretty good.

I don't see how the timing is good. go to oblivion and pick up a warhammer and just swing it over and over (just keep clicking the mouse) without using power attack. you'll notice that the animation resets immediately after the swing, so your warhammer pretty much "jumps" from finishing location to another starting location, and the time between each strike is almost none. in real life, the cool time time is even longer than the swing time.