The necks aren't exactly BB but they are the best looking I've seen. They are slightly smaller than stock BB. Scaling it in Nifscope doesn't seem to help.
But, it looks like it is a really good option.
Also, it will mean that we only need 10 meshes not 20 because they will work for male and female.
I can't find any workaround for the clothing issue with beasts.
What this means at this point is beasts won't be able to have a sheathed weapon and a "sheathed" shield at the same time.
The only option for doing a dual anything in clothing are the gloves. So, we can combining the gloves to dual and free up the right or left type to use.

It really doesn't matter which side we use for combining the types, to free up right or left. But, whatever we do it looks like we will have to use the glove/clothing type and one of the armor types. I'm leaning towards the bracers now, just because there are less of them and it would make less of a impact, balance wise.

For the beasts, on the shields, we may have to go back to the clavicle as long as you think you can script around it, That Bloke(TB) :unsure: Se up like OBSQB.

Is using a race check to decide which item to equip a viable option? Will it help in the long run?

I agree with thechy. This is a good way to deal with a balance issue that has been long outstanding.


As for a using a universal neck piece instead of the BBish necks....
#1 reason - it would reduce the size of the mod 10 fold. This really comes into play once we get to mod made weapons and shields.
#2 reason - reduce my work 10 fold
I've though about retexturing the neck piece to make it look like some sort of collar. But then you run in to the issue so what color? No color will match everything.
Phijama weapons used a black "post" for his necks. I would think that something like silver of gold would be a better choice. Maybe ebony or deadric to keep with lore.
Input?

For the best compatibility with BB clothing, you might want to free up left slots as those are recommended for adding layer-able clothing / accouterments without having to replace a body part. The Better Bodies readme has more details.

The slot for usage isn't the problem. The type is.
When you look at the armor in the CS. You'll see ID, Name, Type,Script...on the left side. Within that type one of the sets of L/R armors will have to be combined into a dual.
I've started to put the esp together and set everything up as Right for Armor/Bracers. Completely freeing up the Left Bracer type.
Clothing/Gloves will be done the same way. Set up as Right Gloves. It is the only choice in the clothing. Freeing up the Left glove Type completly.
I've already made the ground meshes and was going to start on the icons today.

Since there are more weapons than shields, I propose to make all of the weapons use the neck slot with the left glove/clothing for the Type.
Make the shields as armor and use the neck slot with the left bracer/Armor for the Type.
The Shields will also have to be set up for the argonians given their particular issues.
(does anybody know if LizTails new BB argonains fix these issues or are they a built in issue? I'll investigate today)
I propose to use the clavicle slot with the left bracer/Armor for the Type just for argonians.

The other choice is to use the clavicle slot with the left pauldron armor Type for all races.
This would mean the we would need to go back to the Dual Pauldron instead of the dual bracers.

EDIT - Just checked out Liztails BB races and it doesn't' seem to fix the issue, which leads me to believe that this is a game issue. I have no clue why though?

Once I get the basics done in the CS, I'll start with the bows and quivers putting them on the necks. Then I'll move onto the weapons. I'll continue to investigate the argonian issue and see if I can find a work around.
I may appear to disappear from this thread, in a few days, I will be at work. Be back home after the New Year. I will continue to work while I am gone. :user:

Man, you move much faster than I do on this stuff. It looks like you're really finding some clever ways around the equipment slots.

For the clavicle problem - yes I can script around that. You can have a global script start that scans for armor on the left pauldron and determines the type every 5-10 frames or so, then updates a global value that other scripts can read. Or, perhaps the easiest thing to do, and I'd guess would have less CPU overhead would be to attach a little script to Pauldrons that set a global to what type they are on player equip. I can then have any sheathing scripts read that global value and equip an appropriate sheath, slung shield, etc with the clavicle piece of the pauldron attached.

From a compatibility approach the global script would be better - the Weapon Rotate mod supplies a .exe to patch existing saves because any equipment references include the object ID of any attached script. In theory the global script approach would have a slightly heavier CPU load on paper, but in comparison to moving objects around in a 3d enviroment, the NPC AI routines, etc the script should be negligible. It would take real-world testing to determine if there was an observable FPS benefit to using the local scripts

One thing I've been looking at is the problem of the drawn weapon and sheathed weapon showing up on the paper doll in the menu. I'm currently playing around with the idea of a dummy weapon, with the same icon, stats and name as the equipped weapon but an invisible mesh. If the player goes into menu mode and has their weapon sheathed, this dummy weapon is added to the inventory and equipped. When they player leaves the menu the dummy weapon is removed and the real weapon equipped in it's place. Two downsides: Firstly, the paper doll will look better, but the player will see two icons for their currently equipped weapon and secondly, each weapon would need another entry in the Construction Set, which would grow the mod's memory, disk and load time overheads.

Edit:
Or, you could get away with only one dummy weapon if your willing to have the player accept that their equipped weapon doesn't have the equipped square border around it if their weapon is sheathed and they go into the menu.

What do ya think Sandman?

UPDATE: I've been hit by an of inconsistent behaviour in equipping two-hand weapons and shields. If you have a shield equipped and equip a two-handed weapon then engine does nothing, If have a two-handed weapon equipped and then equip a shield then engine automatically unequips the weapon. Then throw in the lovely bug where GetWeaponDrawn returns 0 for a few frames when you enter fight mode with no weapon (fists) my scripts get stuck in a loop and there's nothing I can do about it.

So, I can't force unequip a shield (by adding a dummy shield to the player, equipping it and then removing it all in one frame) with a weapon drawn. This means:
1. There is no way that the shield slot can be used for a slung shield.
2. You can have the shield automatically appear on the back with two handed weapons drawn OR with any weapon sheathed. IE. If you want the shield to automatically sling to the back when you sheathe your weapon, you can't have the sheild appear on your back with a two handed weapon drawn; or vice versa.

So you think we should stick with the clavicle only for the argonian/shield issue?

#1 - dual pauldrons and use them for all of the shields and drop the dual bracers (Only one stock item type touched in the CS)
#2 - dual bracers and only touch the clavicle for the argonians (Least impact for balance)

If we go with bracers, I will make a set of shields that has the clavicle attached like OBSQB.

Paperdoll issue
That really sound like a poll question to me. I think I would prefer to have to community input on this.
We could also use a different icon for the sheathed weapons. Like I did with the arrows across the pauldrons for OBSQB. Maybe a smaller icon in the corner or a border on the icon. As long as they are .dds It's still not a huge size impact on the mod. This would differentiate it in menu mode.
As for the duplicate entries in the cs. It doesn't really add that much to the mod size. It's essentially the same thing I did for the boots/leggings having to have several copies to make everything work.

The argonian thing is really frustrating. I'm glad I noticed the issue early.
I was hoping to set the slung shields as clothing and the weapons as armor. But if I do that I will have to make argoninan duplicates for every weapon. It just comes down to math/more work and mod size.

As to the the t handed weapon/shield issue, I'm sure several issues like that will crop up. Plenty of time to figure this stuff out.
I'll try to get a basic esp to you with at least 2 types of each weapon set up in the cs.(1H sword, 2 H sword, short sword, axe, shield, etc...) so you will have something to work with while I produce all of the stock items.

I'm going to set up a testing esp for me and check exactly where each weapon gets drawn from(left side or right shoulder). Making a list and checking it twice! :hehe:

Okay it does appear the all weapons, except for bows, come from the left hip.
This brings up a big placement issue for the sheathed weapons.
The short swords, daggers, 1H blunt, crossbows, etc... (smaller weapons can all be places on the hip with minimal issues.
Spears/Halberds - pointy end up or down?
2 handed swords - pointy end up or down?
2 handed blunt - business end up or down?
etc...

I'm thinking that, even with they way they are drawn they should sill have the handle up by the head. It just seems the more natural way to carry a large dangerous weapon.

Weapons like Staff of Magnus, Staff of Hasedoki I was thinking they should be up with the shiney by the shoulder. Actually most all of the blunt 2 wide fit into this category.

Marksman thrown - Should we even bother with these? I'm thinking placement issues will make these very difficult between clothing and armor.

Another issue I have been thinking about is the offhand weapons. Weapons set up as shields. Do we want to include all stock weapons as "defensive weapons" also?

Progress update -
All of the icons are done now. Moving on to making the esp for testing for you Bloke.

My opinion on weapon placement is that all one-handed weapons should be on the left hip, pointing down and slightly back, like a sheathed longsword is normally worn. Two-hand swords should def. be on the back hilt upward IMO... I can live with the character reaching for the left hip - as any Morrowind player I'm used to turning a blind eye to awkward animations. I personally imagine spears being worn pointy end down, but maybe that's just me. Blunt two-hand... whatever looks coolest. I wouldn't bother with the thrown weapons, I imagine things like throwing knives and stars being weapons that stealthy types conceal under clothing. I would show daggers on the hip though, I imagine in an environment like Vvardenfell most anyone would have some kind of knife on their belt.

I like the idea of some parrying weapons, but maybe include this as an optional esp?

I've found a reasonable workaround for the paper doll issue, if a weapon is sheathed on the first frame a player enters the menu a dummy weapon (iron dagger, whatever, doesn't matter) is added to the player's inventory, equipped and then removed again, un-equipping the player's actual weapon in one frame (there's no equivalent opposite function to Equip). This means that the weapon doesn't show as equipped, but you can tell what weapon is equipped from the paper doll and the apparel icon for the sheath. Once the player exits the menu their normal weapon is re-equipped. As this is a little intrusive I'll can include this as an option that the player turns on if they want it.

Did you decide over bracers or pauldrons? It's looking to me like you are going to need a clavicle workaround similar to OBSQB, does that make it easier to just double up the pauldrons, or is freeing up the bracers slot more flexible? I dunno though, I think you've put more research into the equipment slot problem than anyone else, so I'm cool with whatever you think is best.

OK, here's a question I'm about to try and test out, but would appreciate the answer if anyone knows it - does the engine automatically set the ownership on items in an NPC's inventory? If so, use of the MWSE xGetOwner function introduces the interesting possibility of adding scripts to weapons that give NPCs sheaths too...

Edit: Oh and I'm not sure if you're planning on integrating the quivers and sheathing bows into this mod, but if you're willing to double up the quivers and have empty ones too I can certainly have them empty if the player doesn't currently have any arrows equipped and full if they do. Given the no. of items involved already I don't think it would be practical to do an actual arrow count from 10 down (although I have got this working with Dongle's quiver if you want to include this for unarmoured players.)

Ohhh, exciting thread. Thanks for the effort, look forward to hopefully giving it a go in future!


Edit...

Agree with weapon placement That Bloke listed above. With my limited knowledge... Only one that's different in real life that I know of were axes (and similar) which were usually carried with the head of the weapon on the hip and the haft through a loop on the belt. So opposite way around to swords. No biggie tho, whatever is doable Spears, halbards and other big things were just carried resting on the shoulder, no way to really to sheath them but on the back head down is probably best. Whilst I'm dreaming... Having a staff in hand walking animation would be truely awesome :hubbahubba: Beyond the scope of the project? oh well

Thanks again.


-KWm

Yeah, beyond the scope. No animations for that.
Thanks for the interest!

Looks like we agree on placement of sheathed weapons :twirl:
With the argonian issue I think the dual pauldrons only makes sense. It's more of a balance issue but in the long run..it will be easier.
I'm glad you glad you made progress on the paperdoll problem. :woot:
I don't think that ownership is automatically set. Some things in your inventory can be taken by guards if your naughty because they are flagged as stolen.

Since the bows and quivers will be down to 1 with the neck. We can do that. Five copies sounds reasonable. Full, 10, 5, 1, 0 shouldn't effect fps to badly. What do you think?

I'm tired, I'll mull over the off hand weapon stuff.

Quivers - script is already done for all stock arrows (including area effect mod) and a partner script that swaps out the quiver, I've tested on my laptop and the effect as the player runs low on arrows is very immersive, importantly the FPS hit of the scripts is negligible.