How do we know he/she was not a thalmor supporter? Or she could have been forced to do it.

True about it being neutral, but even with it under the control of the Imperials (Who were ASKED TO COME) the statue is still there. Also, I could easily see Heimskr arrested for being a public nuisance ( which he is, he never shuts up). If he was arrested for the talos worship, he would not have been in jail and would have never been seen again. I do agree about the Battle-borns being idiots though, they are so Thalmor supporters.

Then let me show you some more Imperial boot-licking to the Thalmor: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Missive_(Battle-Born)

...and they're supposed to be sided against them? Good joke Even if they're just puppets, or hostages, the Imperials are equally useless.

One family, and how do we know they were not Forced into doing it, read the missive from the sounds of it, Tullius is basically saying "They said that if the matter is not dropped he will die/more people will "disappear"". If you show the missive to him and are part of the imperial legion, he will send you to go free him. I would also like to point out that when Vignar Grey-mane is Jarl, he ignores the battle-borns when they get robbed of stuff, etc. Also as i just said, The battle-borns are idiots.

Looks like you just showed that the Battle-Borns have been wanting to know where Thorald is. Nothing wrong with that.

And if one of the options actually worked and wasn't bugged, you could get Tullius to get you a release form to free Thorald.

You act as if Imperial supporters just love the Thalmor.

2: Those two are priests of the Nine in Bruma, and I wonder what makes them insane. They seem reasonably sane, to me at least.

3: Individuals tend to take after the race of their mother, which could explain Uriel and Martin Septim being Imperials, while they have even had Dunmer ancestry. Tiber being a Nord/Breton wouldn't matter, since as far as we know, all races except the beast races can interbreed.

Ultimately, all the races, save for the Argonians, comes from the Elhnofey. But they have changed and by quite a bit. The Nords and the Cyrodilics are not the same people anymore and haven't been since before the ancestors of the Nords left for Atmora. Both are human, and thus closer than Men and Mer, but still distinct.

Heimskr is supposed to be arrested in the case of the playing doing the Battle for Whiterun on the Imeprial side, but there is a bug that prevents it. If you do it on the Stormcloak side, he'll tell you he bribed Balgruuf's men to keep him out of prison. The Empire, willingly or not, are complying with the White-Gold Concordat and enforces the Talos ban.

2. What they say just makes them seem more like Religious nuts, that they would "try and bring the beauty of the nine divines" in Morrowind if they could.

3 .Actually it does matter if he is a Breton, because then it makes the Entire civil war thing Funnier IMO for both sides.

4. Again, he could easily be arrested for being a public nuisance, Whiterun was neutral. Also, they still have the Giant Talos statue there untouched even after the imperial side.

Lol, the Empire still allow it, guy. Same deal. Tullius says "what was that Rikke as soon as she even mentions Talos, and thats evidence of not caring? She doesn't worship "regularly." They don't do anything about whiterun because it isn't imperial land yet, and here's what happens as soon as it is:

• Sometimes, when the Imperials get control of Whiterun during the Civil War, Heimskr won't be sent to jail.
  • This bug is fixed by version 1.2.4 of the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes5Mod:Unofficial_Skyrim_Patch.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Heimskr

As for Talos, simple. The mother defines the race, not the father. Them being Nedes isn't yet fact. Nedes could be a name for Nords, and imperials probably didn't yet exist until the nords broke off and went to Cyrodiil. Just as how the Chimer were once Aldmer but are not anymore. And now they are Dunmer.

And as for only two examples:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Gerich_Senarel

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Dervera_Romalen

I agree, op. This is what happens every time. Denial denial denial and more denial.

One of them is a Dunmer, not an imperial also three people (all from 200 years previously i might add) does not mean the entire race are bigoted. You even said yourself that all the races are racist to some extent. The Argonians are not allowed inside Windhelm, does that seem fair to you? And the Khajiit Caravans are not allowed in ANY of the cities, even though they do not seem to be doing anything wrong.

Also, once again, Heimskr could have been arrested for being a public nuisance, as stated Whiterun was neutral and Heimskr still had to buy his way out of jail (which many even here on the boards think he is). Also, It is mentioned several times that the only reason they do anything about the talos worship is that they have the Thalmor breathing down their back. Tullius, a guy who does not even know what sovngarde is, ignores the fact several people under him Worship Talos, including Rikke. At one point she says "Talos be with you" in front of him and he acts as if he never heard it. Even Jarl Elisif worships Talos, she asks you to bring a Talos amulet that Torygg owned to a Talos shrine.

First of all, actually read the link. I'm talking about evidence of imperialism, which is what I am getting at. Not the racism caused by the Imperialism. To the argonians, I already addressed that earlier in the thread several times:

As for khajiits not doing anything wrong, have you ever listened to them? They're on skooma, and they sell skooma and moon sugar. All of them.

Um:

• Sometimes, when the Imperials get control of Whiterun during the Civil War, Heimskr won't be sent to jail.
  • This bug is fixed by version 1.2.4 of the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes5Mod:Unofficial_Skyrim_Patch.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Heimskr

And yea, I know the Thalmor are why they do it. That doesn't make it better. That's the whole problem, guy. No one here is saying the Empire wants to ban Talos. They still allow the ban regardless.

Jarl Elisif has you go take Torygg's horn to a shrine in secret because she knows she can't do it herself because its illegal, and Tullius basically says "What the [censored] you say?" To Rikke as soon as she said Talos guide you.\

Denial.

Well, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Arcturian_Heresy (confirmed in http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Ghost_of_Old_Hroldan). But even so, irrelevant.

I think you're thinking of the Ehlnofey. That's probably true, but if we go back that far, there's no sense in talking about elves or humans. None of this means that everyone should bow the knee to Cyrodiil and let them run things in perpetuity.

1. The Hist is nowhere near Skyrim for one thing. Secondly, Not allowing them into the City because they MIGHT do something is wrong.

2. As stated above, Heimskr had to buy himself out of jail even when Whiterun was neutral.

3. Actually, Moon sugar is considered a "religious" thing for the Khajiit and there is more than enough people already doing it anyway inside the cities so that is no reason to keep them out. There is not evidence they have stolen anything and Ysolda in Whiterun actually states at least some of them are completely decent traders.

4. If the Stormcloaks actually helped the Imperials get better faster, then that means the Thalmor could be out faster. Enforcing it because they might "disappear" due to thalmor intervention does not mean they agree with it and would rather be able to fight back. They do not "allow" the ban, they are only doing to keep the thalmor from killing them all, so they can get ready to go to war with them again.

5. He pretends to not hear her, that is the point. He clearly heard what she said, they were right next to each other. Also, Elisif is the Jarl of the Capital of Skyrim, A person who is in a great position of power and has the potential of becoming High Queen. The fact that she asks you to do it, even secretly, still proves that she is doing to despite the possibility of the Thalmor finding out and making her "disappear." Only an Idiot would would not do it secretly when there is a Thalmor stronghold nearly right next door.'

I am Sorry if you think i am in denial that the Stormcloaks are in over their heads against thinking they alone could defeat what he entire Empire could not. If the Stormcloaks win, it would give the Thalmor the chance to swoop in and take over Skyrim while they are still recovering from the Civil war.

The only good joke is your poor excuse of "Imperial boot-licking" evidence. Must you jump on anything and contort it to suit your argument?

Even the Book states that is possibly not what happened and only of a million guesses on what really happened. nice try, using a source that admits it is not very trustworthy. Your right, but in this case it is not the empire being the Tyrant or trying to run things, it is the Thalmor, who the empire wants out but cannot fight them on even ground at the moment and are biding their time. From what we know of lore, Skyrim was basically left alone by the empire and left to its own devices in the first place.

I believe the Stormcloaks have a point, a point that should be respected, but that does not mean going to War was the best Idea.

1. Aw, is it wrong? Well, I'll let Ulfric know that while he's fighting for the freedom of his people.

And the hist being an actual threat or not is irrelevant. Ulfric wouldn't know that. And there is evidence of argonians Dunmer and Nords not getting along.

2. No. No he didn't. Source.

3. It doesn't matter if that is true, it's illegal in Skyrim:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Raid

4. How should the SCs help? They can't fight. They can't do anything until the Empire finally decides to go to war. Twenty six. Years. And counting. And yes, they do allow it. Unwilling allowance is still an allowance.

5. The fact that he tells her to watch her mouth shows its not a tolerance. Tell a christian in real life to do that and see what they say. That isn't an acceptance. And the fact that Elisif has to do it in secret at all is the point. Why she does so is irrelevant when we're talking about the Imperials allowing it.

Again no one is saying they want the ban. But it still is there, regardless. Your arguing is pointless. "They didn't enjoy it!" Is always a poor argument.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Skyrim%27s_Rule

2. Okay, yeah getting his people's freedom while squashing other races freedom, that sounds great

3.Again, why should they be banned from the cities if Moon sugar and Skooma are already in the city a lot.

4. you're right about the not able to do anything right away, but that is the thing, if Skyrim gets ready and The High Queen/King goes to the Emperor, he/she might be able to talk him into going to war. If they get Hammerfell's, Morrowinds, and Argonia's help as well they could defeat the Thalmor and Free Everyone. Also, If they did not at least somewhat follow the law a lot of people's family members might "disappear" and get kidnapped/killed by the thalmor for trying to resist. Would YOU risk losing your family.

5. ummm he does not say that, he just "asks" about what she said and just then ignores it.

OP, I would recomend getting this thread locked at this point, niether of us are going to yeild to the other and this is all it seems this thread is doing at this point. Look around the game, ask NPC's, figure out who YOU think is right.

Actually it is an argument. If they do not follow it, or at leas

There are several reason for why I always choose the Empire.

For one, a united empire stands a better chance against the Dominion.

Secondly, Skyrim is a founding province of the empire. The Stormcloaks are rebels and the empire belongs in Skyrim, no matter what the Stormcloaks say.

Thirdly, Ulfric. I can never help but equate him in my mind to all the real-life powerhungry usurpers out there who care for nothing but their own glory.

These are my reasons but mainly it's Ulfric. Can't stand that guy.

High King Torygg was highly respected by the people. During the Civil war, Rikki is wondering if the moot might choose someone who is not a friend to the empire, and while it is true that Tullius does not seem worried, he also barely knows any nord customs at all. Also, Many NPC's in the game state outright (including Lokir right in the tutorial) that Skyrim was not really enforcing the White-Gold concordat at all, and that it was only Ulfric starting the Stormcloaks that got the Thalmor to actually go over there and start enforcing it.

Also, that letter also states that the Jarl of Solitude tends to be chosen as the High King. From what it can see, it never says what happens of the Moot possibly chooses someone else, or if the Empire actually does do anything.

1. And how's that different from what the Empire is doing? Taking religious freedom to meet an end. Having Argonians stay out the city for the safety of the citizens is a lot less worse than allowing torture and murder for a religion out of fear of war.

2. Because IT'S ILLEGAL. There's crime inside the kingdom a lot period. Especially in Riften. Murder and [censored] too. Why not allow those too?

3. You're naive if you seriously think the SCs could convince the Emperor to go to war any sooner. He tried talking with the Jarls and Torygg. Didn't work and Sybille said it wouldn't have. Morrowind fends for itself. And Argonians are FIERCELY isolationist. Rainbows and fairies my friend. As for risking my family, my family is quite religious. I wouldn't need to. They'd be dead before they let anyone tell them who they can worship. Believe that.

4. Lol, really? You didn't hear his tone? He was asking to put her in check.

The op is a big girl. Why should the thread get locked because you can't handle someone not agreeing with you? Just back out if you can't handle it.

A http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Sayma in Solitude says he wasn't a very good king and only made speeches about the glorious empire.

So they were going to let Talos worship continue in Skyrim out of the goodness of their hearts?

You have a neat way of dismissing sources that don't agree with your view. That's natural, but since you're talking about the lore stating this and that, you should be aware of sources that offer a differing viewpoint.

Well that would be the view of imperialists. Also wife-beating husbands, possessive SO's, etc.

1. Exactly, both sides are doing it and forcing the Argonians to live out on the docks for the safety of the Dunmer is a bit backwards considering Ulfric seems to ignore the Dunmer, even the ones who are actually trying to work. Difference is one side is doing it willingly, other side is not

2. good point, but maybe they would not sell it inside the cities if asked.

3. LOL, Ulfric NEVER talked with Torygg. The Jarls did not want to go to civil war. If he actually ASKED Torygg it might have been easier. They might have been able to work together with the empire, and possibly even Tullius to get the armies ready faster. IF asked, maybe Morrowind might help, they do not seem to be very friendly toward the Thalmor at all and it could be an enemy min situation. Same with the Argonians, though you do have a decent point about it being really hard.

4. yeah, the tone also indicates it was more of a "don't say that or you might get into trouble and there is nothing i can do about it"

I was also just pointing out that no one is going to change their mind at this point, and weren't you the one who said that if you did not choose yet you should turn off your system?

1. if true, then why is Elisif possibly going to be High Queen? Also, her Husband is in support of the Empire and Elisif.

2. actually it is pointed out several times that the Thalmor were not interested in skyrim all that much until the Stormcloaks came along.

3. you have a point i will admit, but all it proves is that it is a grey area that both sides have a point and the lore has things helping both.

2. Lol, yea right.

3. LOL.

He was at the moot, said what he needed to say, Torygg didn't give him any hints. And Sybille said already it was fruitless anyway. I cant address your second point seriously, because it's silly. "Maybe the Empire would have got along and holded hands" is too naive. Why would they even offer that when the last time Ulfric helped the Empire, they arrested him for Talos worship?

4. Yea, that's the point.

Eh, all the arguments used against the Stormcloaks are just as equally valid against the Empire.

Please keep your replies free of logical fallacies or do not reply to me at all. This is called an appeal to emotion and it does not suit as a reply to what I wrote. Wife-beaters and such have no business being equated to the Empire, unless you are purposely using crooked debating tactics to garner support for a cause you secretely know is unsupportable.

If the Stormcloaks do indeed have a point you can expound on that well enough while remaining within the realm of the credible and sound.

But since you opened the door to this, my reply would be that Ulfric is Hitler, or a close enough approximation. A ruthless amoral monster who would do or say anything if it meant him ending up on top. See how unsuitable such an apply to emotion is? Nevermind that I just invoked Godwin's law and by custom have now lost the entire debate.