Forgot who mentions it, but someone in Elisif's court has the Opposite view, that Torygg was a huge really devoted fan of Ulfric and that it is very likely had he gone to him after he was high king and talked to him, he would have declared independence, he was captured because he was doing it out in the open and basically flaunting it, that was a stupid mistake on his part, had he done it in secret he would not have been captured in the first place. Sybille also points out that the reason Torygg was loyal to the empire was because Talos was it's creator and that he was not going to allow some elven scum to try and break it. Also, Why could they not have worked together, that is what they do at the end of the imperial quest line anyway. Also, yeah he ignored it and never told anyone, It is obvious she worships Talos, and somewhere (forgot where though i admit) it mentions that many of the imperial troops worship Talos Secretly. Tullius knows it but ignores it because he disagrees with the Thalmor.

At this point, We should agree to disagree, we will never change the others mind at this point and that is what the game planned and succeeded in doing

Dude, go sit, get a cold glass of water, and chill the heck out. If anything, that big response over such a small line shows your insecurity in your side. Your statement that "They belong in Skyrim, no matter what" was well deserving of the wife beater comment.

Worshiping in secret doesn't equal religious tolerance. I don't know why people keep saying this as if it is better.

If you were gay and your parents said keep it to yourself and let it stay secret, would that be better?

And yea, Sybille says Torygg admired him, but then also goes on to say this:

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c0695

She contradicts herself.

edit: And no they don't do that at the end of the questline. They say they will. They've been saying that for 26 years.

That's what you think. How people reply to your posts is not my call, but I would like logical and well-thought out replies and not fallacious appeals to emotion with the intention of putting words in my mouth. Especially when I take the time to print a well-formulated post. Yes, the empire belongs in Skyrim. This is simply a fact. Skyrim is a founding province of the empire, without Skyrim there wouldn't be one.

Ulfric and his 'Stormcloaks' are fighting for a cause that never existed, it, like the Talos issue, is purely and solely to put Ulfric on the throne. Ulfric is the one who caused the Thalmor to take notice of Skyrim and he did so deliberately, knowing that Thalmor interference in Skyrim would rally the people to his cause.

If he had left well enough alone Talos would have been continued to be worshiped unofficially. (And this paragraph is opinion.)

This is not a fact. The Empire doesn't have a right to anything. No government does. How is that a fact? They have no divine right, nothing like that. This isn't even truly the third Empire. It's barely even an Empire. Your statement was silly and got an appropriate response in return.

edit: It wasn't an appeal to emotion. If anything, it was a joke. And a good one at that for the truth of it.

It is religious tolerance to some extent from the imperials if they are only enforcing it if the Thalmor find out about it. The Thalmor are the ones doing the Enforcing and making them do it in secret, not the Empire. The Jarls of Skyrim tried their best to not enforce the ban and it was pretty much ignored in skyrim until Ulfric created the Stormcloaks and brought the Thalmor to Skyrim to look into the fact that many in Skyrim were worshipping Talos openly and the Empire was doing nothing about it.

How do you know what they do or do not do, we only see the very end of the war? The Stormcloaks uprising bringing the Thalmor to Skyrim probably made them realize that they cannot hold it off any longer, whether ready or not.

How do you get to that page with all the quotes and actually find the ones you're looking for? i tried to find it but could not.

Actually, they did have a divine right, quite literally so. The pact Alessia made with Akatosh provided a divine mandate for the Septim empire.

To what degree this is still valid now that the pact has been fulfilled and the Septim empire is defunct is debatable. Certainly the Medes propaganda would see them as a direct and lawful continuation of the Septim empire, but I disagree with that since they took the throne by conquest, several decades after the fall of the Septims.

There's no in between. There's either religious tolerance or there is not. Doesn't matter that the Thalmor is the cause at all. "They don't like that they allow oppression" isn't a good argument.

All we get are more promises and no confirmation. Until we do, its just more hearsay.

To the last part, I'm awesome

Key word. As in, no longer.

That is debatable. Also, please halt your habit of replying to a singular word. It is becoming punctilious. There is an entire message I am typing and as with the quote of Camoran this zooming down on a single fragment is both detracting to that as it is dismissive of the rest of my text.

How is it not, if they do not, the war could possibly destroy the Empire and that would not be helpful for Tamriel.

You're right, we have no way of knowing what happens after the civil war ends, we have to wait until ESVI

Just to quote myself (and others have warned) what this thread will end up doing and see it has derailed. I hope the TC has enough to go by for his/her playthrough.

too late, it has been derailed for a while

I quote what is actually relevant and necessary to respond to and will continue to do so. It is dismissive. That is intentional to focus on a point.

Anyway, not really. The Empire no longer has a pact with Akatosh and they have no septim blood. No divine right whatsoever.

It's absolutely a valid comparison. "You're mine and you're going nowhere" is how tyrants of various sorts operate. Imperialists among them.

And in no way is the Stormcloak side of things unsupportable. That's what you call fair debate tactics, simply dismissing the other side outright? I'll leave you to your hyperbole now.

Because she's a good puppet and the empire is fighting to get her the seat because of it.

Not sure what you're talking about here.
Pointed out by imperial supporters and Lokir. Except that the Thalmor started enforcing the WGC a year after the end of the war, as of the Markarth Incident, which they even claim to have been involved with setting up. So apparently they intended to operate in Skyrim immediately.

Yes, but quite often it is not the point I am making. It is not productive to a debate to overly focus on too small a detail, it detracts, and it replies to points I am not, in fact, making. One does not hoodwink out a single word and makes it the entire focus of a rebuttal. One rebuts on the argument as whole.

I said this is debatable. The Medes clearly see the empire as a continuation of the old one. Why do they do this? Is this solely propaganda or do they have something to back it up?

One does focus on a single point if that point is the only one I need to respond to to counter the whole argument.

Yes its clearly propaganda. They're not septims and there is no pact. That is all that made the Empire special.

1. It is the Thalmor that demands the Empire to give out large portions of Hammerfell, and the Empire did absolutely nothing to make the Redguards understand the situation. The same applies to Talos sell out and Nordic understanding. Heimskr had to pay off the guards to leave him alone, and he no longer have to once the Stormcloaks won Whiterun

2. Those are TWO examples of when the Empire is in its glory. In good times, the Empire tries to imperialize the Nords. In bad times...? They deny Talos.

3. Your race is inherited from your mother. If any one of the wives of the ruling Septim's bloodline is an Imperial, the Septim bloodline will be transformed into Imperials. The last Nordic Septim was Pelagius the Mad

We don't know that. They hold White-Gold and the Temple of the One and these are of mythic significance to the stability of Tamriel.

Clearly there is something going on with them apart from what meets the eye, as they have been far more clever and persistent than one would expect from a band of rogue usurpers.

Mede's dialogue in Skyrim makes clear that the seat of empire still holds special priviliges such as a knowledge of future events. He is quite unperturbed by his impending assasination and has been expecting you.

1. She seems pretty dead set on Her own views, she openly admits to not liking Tullius all that much and does not seem to sort of person to be bullied into something she does not want.

2. I was talking about the person you said was saying Torygg was a bad king, Her husband supplies the Empire and Supports Elisif.

3. Except they apparently did not operate immediately.

1. Many of the Generals from the war "retired" to hammerfell and helped kick the thalmor out of Hammerfell. Heimskr had to pay the guards off when Whiterun was neutral in the war. Again, There is a GIGANTIC statue of Talos right in the middle of whiterun and it is untouched no matter what side wins. He was probably arrested for being a public nuisance, it should tell you something when a lot of people here on the boards want him to shut up and that there are many mods out there specifically to torture or kill him in a variety of ways..

2, 2 out of how many again? both seem like the sort of person who would try to go to morrowind and try to "imperialize" then

3. Both races are related to the nedes

I found Medes response to the assassination to be extremely similar to Uriel VII...

"I know I am to be killed, I have seen it.. and as such, I see no reason to oppose fate... however before I die, i would like to ask one last thing of you..."

There's nothing there but raw speculation. The tower has been deactivated ever since the Amulet was destroyed, and his words of expecting us are rather ordinary. He heard the DB was after him, and like anyone who hears that, he expects death. Rather simple.

And you're gonna need something much much more concrete to claim there's divine right in justifying why the Empire absolutely belongs in Skyrim no matter what than saying "there's something else there."

except the high brass in the Penitus Oculatus just told him "hey, we just slaughtered the Dark Brotherhood! everything is safe now!"

He mentions the Dark Brotherhood as being the reason for his fatalism- that you can't escape them. No mention of a dream or prophecy, and the Elder Scrolls have been scattered. I agree it's meant to show some parallelism, but there's no conclusion to be drawn here. The only real supernatural influence we have verified about the Medes is daedric- Attrebus' agreement with Malacath to end Umbriel (which was indirectly itself the reason Mede I came to power, since Hierem ushered in him as an unwilling dupe for his own machinations), and rumors of Mede II wielding Goldbrand.

None of it matters. "The gods are with me," even if true, doesn't give moral justification for anything, not even in Nirn.

Civil War? politics.. wtf! my character is too busy exploring and experimenting, its nice to be a newbie, everying is so.... new..

Only an idiot believes the DB is dead, ever. There is a name for someone who believes the DB is dead, Deadmeat.

would like to point out, divine right or not, he DID wield a Daedric artifact into battle, Goldbrand. Exactly HOW did he get his hands on one of Boethiah's Weapons?