Even a Dunmer in Solsthein calls them whiners. And what Jarl wouldn't stop a bunch of pissed off citizens arming themselves and making a fighting force in a city with racial tension? Or a city period?

Also, why would they make a fighting force in the city?

Right, and to be fair, they aren't his responsibility. According to the Decree, if it is still in effect after all this time anyway. We don't have anything else that suggests they are considered citizens though. If you want something, you gotta give something. Even if you don't agree that is right, its still hardly racism. If you told me you thought Ulfric was mean for doing that, then I couldn't disagree. War is harsh, that is the reality.

Neither the Dunmer of the Gray Quarter nor the Windhelm government are really blameless in the condition of the Gray Quarter.

On one side, the Windhelm Guard really neglect the Gray Quarter. Why are they skimping on patrols? Why hasn't Rolff and Arengor been tossed out on disorderly conduct? Why has civic upkeep been neglected? If it's "because of the war", why hasn't the Stone Quarter been neglected as well?

On the other side... the Dunmer really do need to stop asking to take, and give a little. They're part of Windhelm, they need to contribute. Any dunmer that do get labeled with a mild form of category treason, "selling out" to the Nords.

And I agree completely. Unfortunately, neither side want to give first.

A jarl's duty is to care for his people, not to demand them to prove that he should.

I also don't see how any non-Nord person would feel motivated to join such a Nord centric war. Think of when Galmar is rallying the Stormcloaks before taking Whiterun or when Ulfric does in the final assault on Solitude. Their speech is solely directed at Nord people. A Bosmer would feel out of place listening to that.

As for racism, there is worse in Tamriel. Redguards and Dunmer are even more hostile towards outsiders. I mean those who actually live in Hammerfell and Morrowind, those found in other provinces are obviously bound to be more open-minded.

That is a more reasonable answer I can go with here. I'd say that the reason the Stone Quarter isn't neglected because they are supporters of the Stormcloaks and Dunmer are not, though. But yes, the problem is bigger than just blaming one side, and it will take both sides to eventually resolve it. But that won't be for a long time, SCs or no SCs.

The question is, are the Dunmer Ulfric's people? The Decree of Monument suggests no, but we don't for a fact know if that is still in effect or not. Obviously, I think it is for the same reason people think Brunwulf is right about Ulfric not helping Non Nord caravans. There's no other source to contradict it.

The Dunmer of Windhelm do work. All of them.

I don't see how they're not contributing to the city.

Just because they work doesn't mean they contribute. A tavern doesn't contribute to the city or the Stormcloaks. The Hlaalu farm does, however. So kudos to him. But the rest are sticking to themselves, as are the Nords.

By law, they don't have to pay taxes, according to the treaty that Colonel mentioned. (...IIRC).

By fact, this leads to a bit of resentment in the government and people of Windhelm, that they feel like the Dunmer are a load. Taxes are a contribution to the public welfare. The treaty was signed more than a couple Nord lifetimes ago, and the feeling of charity towards the Dunmer after they got waylaid by the Red Year has worn thin.

And then there's the issue of them being in poverty, so taxes may be too much on them. Vicious cycle.

Well, there is also the Suvaris Atheron who works for the Shatter-Shields and her brother Faryl Atheron, a farmer.

Then we have that merchant selling meat at the market, and the shopkeeper at Sadri's Wares.Thet

They may not pay taxes, but saying they don't do much is a little of a stretch.

Funny how nobody complains about the Jarls making you do things like clear a bandit hideout or kill a dragon before you get an unfurnished house.

"Imperial Mission" towards the Dunmer in Cheydinhal:

- http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Mach-Na

- http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Dervera_Romalen

"Imperial Mission" towards the Nords in Bruma.

- http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Arentus_Falvius

- http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Isa_Raman

- http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Gerich_Senarel(note that he says the Nord guard captain is the one mmaking sure the guards respect the Nords way of life, confirmed by talking to Burd, who will say he does make sure of it).

Leyawin:

- http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Countess_Alessia_Caro

- http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Tsavi

How is this for multiculturalism? This is how they treat people in the border cities in their own province. They tolerate them being different, but not without trying to do something about it. And they still use the other nations for their own benefit, like the East Empire Company getting a monopoly on trade on wares like Ebony, Kwama Eggs and Dwemeri items.

You also have the change in the Nords, who used to have a very different pantheon than they have in Skyrim and by the time of Oblivion is shown to be resisting the attempts to convert them. And the Imperial Cult in Morrowind, who competed with the Tribunal Temple(who was allowed to continue to exist because of the treaty between Tiber and Vivec). And the House Hlaalu embracing the Empire and becoming the most powerful Great House under the Empire, giving them unrivaled political power. The Empire meddles with everything that can be turned to their benefit. And as the book Celan have linked a few times now show, there was no real benefit for the common people for them to hold Morrowind, making the presence of the Empire pointless interference in the Dunmer people(quite significant too, considering they get to chose the king and have manned forts all over the place, meaning a strong military presence and thus power over the politics), motivated by money.

Well, as I see it, the whole thing about establishing a dominant culture isn't really any better. "We treat you as an equal, if you act like we do and accept our culture and customs as the right ones". Not to mention the deal about not seeing other people capable of ruling themselves. The Nords are a great example of this.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c347c

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Wolf_Queen,_v1

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Gerich_Senarel

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Arentus_Falvius

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Isa_Raman

Thing is, the scaling for the city is something you should take into consideration. Sure we have a few helping, but if the city was fully realized, how many of the full population actually would? A few people helping wouldn't offset a whole population of people not paying taxes. That's a big burden.

The same argument can be made for the amount helping. In a fully realized city, many would be helping. also, just by owning shops and working, they are contributing to the Windhelm economy.

Out of the number of Dunmers you see in Windhelm, only about two of them directly "help". In a fully realized city, the ratio will still be the same

If they were, there'd be nothing to complain about, and poverty wouldn't be so bad.

I am predominently an Imperial supporter though my main (Breton) is a Stormcloak due to me supporting Talos worship.

If we anolyse Ulfric then how is he a racist when he has given a large section to his city to Dunmer? The Argonians are most sensibly not allowed off the dock due to tentions with the Dunmer rather than something Ulfric has against them. Ulfric is Jarl so has to do what's best for his people. Grey Quarter included. Dunmer probably don't get the respect as age old families who's ancestors built up the city as they haven't earned it yet. That saying the only poor citizens I see sleeping on the streets are all Nords. It is also apparent that even though the Nords have given up parts of their home, the Dunmer seem more preoccupied with their own desires and show little interest in Nord beliefs (I.e. Talos and the war).

With regards to Khajiit traders not being allowed into the cities then that is not a rule exclusive to Stormcloaks but is also Imperial run cities as well. The facts here is that the Khajiit merchants probably do not pay any form of merchant taxes whereas there is a good chance of the traders in the city doing so. The Khajiit are also there solely to make money and are competition to the local economy. The Khajiit's sole aim is to make money and take that wealth back to Elsweyr - a province that now supports the Thalmor!! They are lucky they are even allowed to trade within Skyrim considering that they have no desire to settle and contribute to Skyrim's future as a patriotic citizen.

With regards to the Reachmen then if you look on maps of Tamriel you will notice that half of the Reach is in Skyrim and there is an equal amount in High Rock. It is not just Nords who fight against the Forsworn but also the Bretons in their side. The reason being is the Forsworn do not represent the Reachmen as they try make claim but are a separatist movement that indulge in inhumane acts of lifestyle and worship.

Going back to why I am pro-Imperial then under the circumstances of the Thalmor threat then I feel Ulfric has made a great mistake in starting the war. If it were possible it would have been better trying to get a seat within the Imperial City and fight from within rather than weaken the forces of man.

Go Stormcloak if you think Skyrim is above Tamriel as a whole.

Go Empire if you think Tamriel as a whole must be placed above Skyrim.

I think it's more of a geopolitical debate if anything. Stormcloaks obviously give Skyrim a better future, and Nords will be much better off without the Empire, but on the other hand under Imperial control Skyrim's resources are better used against the war with the Thalmor. My Altmer characters for example, and me personally, do not like the Empire but know that a united Empire is more capable to defeat the Thalmor than a cluster of mutually hostile little kingdoms.

As far as I'm concerned, Skyrim can defect from the Empire if it wants to but only after the second Great War is over and the Thalmor are toppled. In fact I think the Empire should be reduced to Cyrodiil after the second war. But until then, I promote a swift boot to the Nords' face until the real enemy has been dealt with.

I don't bother myself with things like racism, corruption and such. All I care about is geopolitics and building coherent opposition to the Dominion. A united Empire is better for that purpose.

inb4 the Stormcloaks-are-infallible crowd.

Ultimately the question is which side you agree more with. If you think the Empire is weak and ineffectual, I'd say the Stormcloaks is an easy choice.

I don't think Ulfric, or the Stormcloaks, are as racist as people want to believe. Without a doubt pro-Nord, but I don't get much more racism from them than from most other races, even the Imperials. Ulfric, Galmar and every camp-commander in the Stormcloaks describes the same plan:

1) Kick out the Empire and, by extension, the Thalmor

2) Rebuild Skyrim to a strong independent nation

3) Take the fight to the Dominion

Only ones talking about the Stormcloaks not wanting anyone but the Nords in Skyrim that I've come across are people who either is politically opposed to them, or who is at the bad end of the segregation in Windhelm. That later part isn't nice, but I think it is a little more complicated than just "The Nords are just mean". The http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Decree_of_Monument is an interesting work.

Another user made a list of sources he thought was relevant some time ago. Worth checking out, IMO, if you're undecided. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XhO0SW7PrM-UVtk6shls_bOcm2CN8CvvtxOWo1nc75I/edit

I don't like to take a side in the civil war but I find it interesting that the city with the most racial equality, minorities in positions of power (Bosmer steward, Dunmer foreman of the largest business in town), members of beast races living a relatively good life (Argonian ownership of largest Inn in town), and where interracial romance appears to be most prevalent (with a Stormcloak supporting Nord warrior with a Mohawk in love with a Bosmer) is under the control of a Stormcloak supporting Jarl.

And while there are significant segregation issues in Windhelm, there are 3 Altmer owned businesses there, all of whom seem rather successful in their lives (well, except the one that's about to die but that's hardly Ulfric's fault) and what people like to forget, a successful Dunmer business owned by Belyn Hlaalu. Teldryn Sero's comments on the grey quarter are also interesting. As for the condition of the place, well, look at all of Windhelm. The city looks like it's about to fall into the river, honestly If I were Ulfric or the Steward I'd be putting rebuilding the city's crumbling walls above the War, serial killer or the grey quarter, it's an old city whose infrastructure issues are clearly not unique to the Gray/Snow quarter. Oddly, Windhelm appears to be the haven of Altmer society in Skyrim, I wonder why that is. It certainly isn't the local weather.

How come there is only one non-man owned Business in the supposed Imperial paradises of Solitude (RR) and Whiterun (Bosmer Hunting supplies)?

I don't think the Stormcloaks need to be infallible to be the better choice overall. The Dark Brotherhood puts something of a hamper on the advantages of the Empire(the one I've come across). And there is the fact that actually invading Alinor is not going to work. That place is harder to invade than Skyrim, and Skyrim has only been successfully invaded by 1) the Atmorans, 2) the Akaviri Dragonguard and the army they were part of, and 3) the Akavir that invaded them as a setup for TESO. Septim didn't invade them(though he apparently did some fighting in the northern parts of the land, according to Chitin and Ice), and the War of the Red Diamond was won by giving Potema's allies more autonomy and protection against legal persecution for supporting her, after her son died and her line became a war of succession waiting to happen, thus securing the Empire's access to Skyrim and Solitude. After the Imperial Army was pushed from Skyrim and before that happened, no reference to Skyrim itself being where battles took place is made that I know of.

It doesn't help that both Valenwood and Elsweyr are virtually untouched by the war, as is Alinor. Empire or not, I doubt there'll be a successful invasion of the Dominion regardless of who does it. So, to me, better go with the mythic and strengthen Talos worship.

I don't like to participate in these threads, but alright.

If you dislike Ulfric, you could always join his cause, not for him, but for the people.

Or you could stay neutral.

Or you could join the Empire for the reason Pistolero mentioned, to increase chances against the Thalmor.

First of all, we don't know what will follow Mede II's death. Mortierre himself says that it will help the Empire a great deal, and we do not know if and how many heirs Mede II has. Maybe Mede III is far more competent than his father which is why the Council wants to speed up succession. Thus, saying anything about Mede II's assassination besides the fact that it happens is nothing more than headcanon.

Also, invasion of Alinor is not required to defeat the Thalmor. Liberating Valenwood and Elsweyr will suffice the make sure the Dominion will not bother the Empire again, and invading Valenwood and Elseweyr is the thing only the Empire is willing and capable to do. Only in the deepest circlejerk fantasies could Ulfric take over these two provinces from Thalmor tyranny, that is even if he gives enough of a damn to try.

The Empire already once destroyed the Dominion's army, and would have emerged victorious in the war had Mede II not chickened out, and I'm quite sure they can do it a second time. The Thalmor couldn't even take on Hammerfell, a united Empire of Cyrodiil, Skyrim and High Rock should be able to steamroll them in short order.