Revenge, the Institute knows that they would be back. It would leave a stain and make the BoS seem weak if they left it like that. That's the reason why the Institute need to destroy the BoS the way they did by showing they could teleport anywhere, hide underground, and can use their own technology against them. Father talked about it. They WILL be back, the difference is the Institute can demonstrate their power, the RR can't. They're a small group on the verge of being wiped out. They can't defend themselves the way the Institute does.

Doesn't the Railroad grab all of the Brotherhood's tech that can be salvaged?

I'm inclined to agree. Although the Brotherhood doesn't agree with the ways in which this technology was being used, one would think they'd still have an interest in it purely for the sake of increased technological knowledge.

This is true, but fundamentally speaking, there is no real difference between white people, black people, etc. There are obviously people who didn't think this back then, and there are obviously people who don't think this today. However, scientifically speaking there is no real difference. Scientifically speaking, there is a very distinct difference between people and synths. Sure, all humans are created by humans...but I don't think that's a very good anology. Human children are born through a biological process. Synths are mass-produced on an assembly line.

How does the Institute ending not involve genocide? I finished my first play through a week or so ago with the Brotherhood of Steel, and earlier today I went back to a save point to do the Institute ending. Father had me kill the Railroad, and kill essentially the entire Brotherhood of Steel presence in the Commonwealth. I'm not sure how this is 'less evil.' If there's a less evil ending, it'd be the Minutemen ending that leaves three factions intact. If anything I see the Institute ending as being the more evil one. You're basically saying "I'm okay with people being kidnapped and replaced by synths just so the Institute can do some experiments." After the Institute ending Piper even makes comments along these lines. How she doesn't know what direction the world is going to head in after making the decisions that you've made. She doesn't have any comments like this with the BoS ending...they're mostly along the lines of "you did it, thanks to you the Institute is gone and the Commonwealth is safe."

Insignificant. Enslaving or killing them out of hand is just as wrong; finer philosophical distinctions aren't relevant when the main philosophical differences are so broad.

The Brotherhood and the Railroad are both military organizations (the former being an invading army), while the Institute is an entire civilization unto itself. And it's not as though destroying the Prydwen means destroying the entire Brotherhood, whereas the Institute is completely eradicated if you do that. As for Piper's dialogue, well, Bethesda cannot into nuance; everything about and relating to the Institute is presented in a ham-handed all-or-nothing manner that leaves out way too many possibilities to be plausible. I am not okay with the kidnapping and such; that's all going to end once the Institute is mine.

I'd hardly call it an insignificant difference. One of these groups is undeniably human. One of these groups is undeniably something other than human. It doesn't matter how closely a synth mimics life. It is still a synth. By granting them full rights, we're opening up a big door. Do Gen I and Gen II synths get rights? What about the intermediate versions that don't fit squarely into one category? What about more primitive machines that are capable of some form of artificial intelligence that's complex on its own, but less complex than that of a synth? Synths are still machines. They were artificially created by people to perform tasks that people didn't want to do. Regardless of how intelligent they are, or at least seem to be, they are still machines executing lines of code that were programmed into them by a programmer. The ones who have something resembling free will are regarded by the Institute scientists as having flawed programming. I don't think the Institute necessarily created them to have free will. They likely wouldn't really have wanted to. A degree of creativity in performing tasks, yes. Very much so. But this isn't the same thing as having actual free will.

I'm not convinced that ending it with the Institute is the most moral outcome though. You can end the game with the Minutemen ending, leave three factions intact, AND issue the evacuation warning during The Nuclear Option. If one does issue the evacuation warning, I take this to mean that a great deal of the Institute scientists/residents escape to safety. As I see it, this is sparing the most possible lives. There's still the point that the Institute flat out tells you that all of the ranking Railroaders must be killed, and the Brotherhood of Steel must be brought down. Best case scenario with the Institute, you kill hundreds of people after having -kidnapped- many people and replacing them with synths to perform exceedingly unethical social experiments.

Even with the evacuation order, it stated that most scientists were slaughtered by the raiders and monsters outside. Patriot committed suicide.

Pretty close. OP is way off base though IMO.

The RR is not good. They're nuts. They really are not doing anything for mankind at all. Think about it. If they got everything they wanted, everything, there would still be raiders and super mutants and gunners and feral ghouls and etc. all over the common wealth killing everyone and everything. The quality of life for the average person wouldn't change a bit. The RR caters only to a small select few that one could argue isn't even alive. My second play-through I finished with them and am more convinced than ever that they are not only nuts but evil as well.

NUTS. EVIL NUTS.

I still like the BoS best. I wouldn't want to live under them now in the real world, but at that time in the FO universe I think they are exactly what the Common Wealth needs. They are the only ones willing to risk their lives to remove the raiders and super mutants and killer synths to make the world a better place for mankind to live. Add to that they want to make sure that the wrong people never get their hands on weapons of mass destruction again. The MM are fairly good as well, but lack the power to actually save the Common Wealth. You can see this by the number of their settlements that just keep getting attacked over and over again. The MM just are not doing enough.

I'm going to kill my neighbor for using a toaster to make toast. Then I'm going to tinker with that toaster until it becomes sapient and set it free. Hope the toaster doesn't become T-1000. Kthnxbai - The Railroad in a nutshell.

Gen 1 and 2 synths don't appear to be sapient, so probably not. I would also consider the possibility that Coursers aren't necessarily sapient; they seem to have much stricter programming than other gen 3s. However, even if gen 3s do have flawed programs, they act exactly like humans, and we can actually have synth experiences be narrated to us by Nick and Curie; I'd say they pass any reasonable definition of sapience.

Well, there's Battlebloodmage's statement to consider, and in any case, it seems entirely predictable as to what'll happen if you throw hundreds if not thousands of extremely sheltered people into the wasteland with no time to prepare.

Leburs, I'm ''way off base'' and he is right? According to you, by stating that he is right - as an personal opinion - I am only wrong in two options and right in 2 so therefore I am 50% off. Not ''Way off base''. And the BoS is not neutral, I can agree with the Railroad's changed alignment but the BoS is evil. They take all kinds of advanced technology, bad or good, harmless or dangerous. If a settlement requires it to live, it is harmless but is an advanced pre-war Tech - like te GECK - they will take it by force and kill everyone who stands in their way. Even though not all are like this this is most often the option they choose,

50% is ok, but 70%+ is a passing grade.

I don't recall doing a side quest where I take a GECK from a settlement and kill everyone in FO4 ... or are you referencing lore or prior game's BoS or something you made up? I beat the game with the BoS and don't recall being ordered to slaughter any town ... not even Good Neighbor, whom you'd think they'd take issue with. They did send me to collect 'tech' usually guarded by Feral Ghouls or Raiders or Super Mutants. I was sent to clear out area's of Feral Ghouls, Raiders and Super Mutants. But kill settlers ... random humans. Nope. No quests like that. Closest to that was clearing out the Institute where there were 'innocent' scientist killed as collateral damage, and of course the RR defended itself.

Again in the FO world, in that Post War world, IMO the BoS is exactly what's needed to get things back on track and can give what's best for the future of man. Best scenario is them working with the MM to also establish settlements, which they can do by just leaving the MM alone ... which the game ... this game ... allows you to do.

The GECK was an extreme overexaggeration of a lesser plot. Still they take technology that people need and don't mind ''collateral damage''.

Plus the BoS is not ''exactly what's needed to get things back on track''. They don't even take command or charge. They just keep to themselves and collect dangerous technology, leaving the people to fend for themselves.

The Institute was/is the best hope for Humanity. They've figured out how to make food easily, they try to recreate extinct animals, (Honsetly I haven't seen much more other Projects but still). They also do take charge, if¨the BoS is eliminated. - A bunch of Synth's teleport to the major settlements.

They are willing, the BoS, to quote Veronica (I Think), ''just takes away all the good toys'' (or similar sentence),

Please point out any quest where the BOS requires me to confiscate tech from peaceful citizens. Please point out any quest where the BOS requires me to kill NON-feral ghouls. BOS confiscates tech from those likely to misuse it, like Raiders, Gunners, Super mutants etc...

I'm working on an Institute MQ ending now, so hopefully I'll know how that works. From the outside it's easy to call some of the Institute's work unethical if nothing else. I mean killing innocent people so you can replace them ... hard to in any way call that a good thing. When doing the RR ending I did have to take the Institutes quests a long long way (to the point where I began wondering who I was really working for) and while there they definitely had saving mankind in mind ... the problem was their definition of mankind was those that live in the institute.

Can I give you quests where the BoS kills innocents? Because I have those.

That's not what I asked for. But I have made it abundantly clear that I don't hold Bethesda's lazy writing against any faction, regarding their conflict resolution with other factions.

That said, I have felt worse about killing some raiders than I did about taking down the Railroad. Still I wish Bethesda had allowed the Player more influence on these conflicts, to allow for less violent resolutions.

Sentinel4Hire - Have you forgotten the Fallout history? And Xilizhra offered a to give a few links to prove that the BoS are evil.

And in any Fallout game the BoS have never told the *player* to kill innocents but do it themselves. in a manner that is not viewable.

Here is a link to a non-feral ghoul hinting that they BoS shoot's them aswell, because they are alike the Super Mutant - https://youtube.be/LyDLxn8Kpw=7m41s

Here is a link to Veronica from New Vegas saying that they've made alot of enemies, I wonder why... - https://youtube.be/BnptUku3934?t=2m25s

Not a link but: The BoS stopped the NCR from activating the Helios One by setting up turrets and killing the NCR, ofcourse it was to prevent the Archimides II platform (a orbital laser) but still, when the Courier get's there it can Power the Strip or NCR barracks (I Believe) or the Freeside - which severely needs it. But the BoS didn't give [censored] about them and tried to prevent anybody from using Helios One.

This are all that I have in my memory. There are plenty more out there and are hard to find. If you've played all the Fallout games you will know that the BoS kill innocent for techology they will not give.

I hate this kind of forum, can't add proper links therefore I do it manually but in the end there is a block preventing it. This is the Alien Isolation forum disaster all over again...

I am well aware of the checkered history of the BOS. But history is not static and neither are the peoples and nations that populate it.

We are discussing not the Western BOS, but the Eastern BOS (a strange marriage of the Lyons BOS and the Outcasts) at the time of the expedition to The Commonwealth. This is an important distinction because we are just being introduced to the Eastern BOS under the talented but inexperienced Elder Maxson.

No one is arguing that the Eastern BOS is a bunch happy go lucky egalitarians. They don't like non-humans and make no secret of it. But they are not stealing tech from peaceful citizens nor are they razing Good Neighbor to the ground.

They are, however, murdering innocent Railroad members and synths. See the Battle of Bunker Hill. They're no better than the Institute, in that quest, and I suspect period.

The Battle of Bunker Hill, is an institute quest. In a straight BOS play through this battle does not appear to occur.

It's actually a pity that this particular event isn't a quest for all factions (including MM) as it was an opportunity to illustrate those tragic events in human history that seem to tarnish all nations and cause cold wars to go hot. In fact an entire quest chain could have been built around this potentially pivotal event.

I experienced this three way riot during my Institute play through. It was never clear to me why the BOS was there as I certainly hadn't told them.

But again this may come down to Bethesda almost having a great idea and then not doing anything with it!

Though I would have to say that the innocence of the Railroad and their synths is debatable, particularly in light of the setting of this event.

In game those things are already history. The BoS has a new leader and few of the new members would remember the 'sins of the past', or they would have been taught the BoS's version of them. Heck I could point to enough historic references to make the US out to be a big bad evil empire.

And lets assume the Sole Survivor was frozen for 200 years and doesn't know anything of the BoS history. None of it. Only what Danse tells them if you join up with him. Let's also assume that to the Sole Survivor the Ghouls, Super Mutants and Synth are 'unnatural', having never experienced anything like them except in horror stories from pre-war. I think there is little reason for the Sole Survivor to jump to the conclusion that the BoS is evil. In fact you are playing a male, who is an veteran, then the BoS may look very promising as the force needed to clean up the Common Wealth.

I think it's telling that the Paladin paint scheme on the Maxson BoS's armor looks more like the Outcast's schema than the Lyons branch's schema. I've been positing for some time that to influence the Outcasts in returning, Maxson had to give them leadership positions, which explains the influence they've had on the organization (and the change in color schemes - knights look similar to the old Lyons BoS scheme, but Paladins and Sentinels are distinctly Outcast in appearance).

Examples:

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/06/Outcast_Patrol_2.jpg

https://assets.vg247.com/current//2015/11/fallout4_guide_paladin_danse.jpg

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/f/fc/Lyons_Pride.jpg

http://fallout4.wiki.fextralife.com/file/view/T-60_BOS_Knight_Paint.jpg/568382675/T-60_BOS_Knight_Paint.jpg

What this tells me is that the Outcasts ended up with major influence in the new organization, enough so that their color schemes were adopted for leadership positions, whereas the old Lyons colors are only seen (and not even as the major color, but as an accent) on the Knight (read: rank and file) members T-60 frames. This also explains the 'backsliding' that's so apparent in turning more towards their focus on forbidden technology in comparison to the focus the organization had in Fallout 3 (which is why the Outcasts left in the first place).

Maxson is in charge, but it's the Outcasts who changed the Brotherhood, not the other way around. I would say that Henry Casdin's rebellion was a complete success in accomplishing what it set out to do... revert the BoS back towards the old ways. It wasn't 100%, as there's still some desire to defend those who can't defend themselves visible in the Brotherhood, but the organization resembles more of what Casdin's troops did in Fallout 3 than what Lyons' soldiers did.

The male Sole Survivor, when speaking to Danse as an Initiate, can mention his previous military service when Danse is explaining that he expects military discipline from the Sole Survivor. Danse proceeds to state that he'll cut the explanation about discipline short as he expects the Sole Survivor to know how to follow orders.

It's really easy to see how the BoS would be comforting to a veteran. They fight similarly to the US Army pre-war (power armored elite troops backed by infantry in combat armor with vertibird support), have a structured organization (even if the rank names have changed from things like Sergeant, Lieutenant, etc), and it would replace an alien environment with one very familiar -- barracks, soldier's comraderie, etc.

The Brotherhood make perfect sense as a faction choice for that very reason. Not that others don't as well, I am merely stating I understand the choice being made. Destroy the thing that took your son, live in an environment that you're familiar and comfortable with once again after possibly months in the wasteland, and then fight back against the "unnatural" things that have overrun your home and country (synths, supermutants, raiders, ferals). I can imagine the allure is very, very strong (especially to the male, war veteran survivor).

It can also be argued the Casdin's Outcasts were more effective, if unintentionally, at protecting normal Wastelanders than the Lyons BOS.

While Lyons was engaged in a years long reenactment of The Battle of Stalingrad (with similar results) in the DC Ruins, Casdin's people were actively and aggressively patrolling the Wasteland, killing raiders and super mutants.

The Outcast also, in interaction with the LW, indicated a willingness to barter for tech. Compensating the LW with supplies of arguably greater use to a Wastelander.

The new Eastern BOS is a hybrid of the philosophies of both Lyons and Casdin. I would say that in a BOS victory, the people of The Commonwealth will benefit a great deal. Particularly that the SS is promoted to Sentinel which indicates that when Elder Maxson heads back to the Capitol, that the SS will be in command of BOS forces in The Commonwealth. The SS should have a great deal of latitude in dealing with the people of The Commonwealth for good or ill, just like an 'Acting' Director SS of the Institute does and quite probably more so given the high esteem with which Elder Maxson clearly holds for the SS.