So I'm trying to create a sort of strength build rogue. You know like in Da:O or like in WoW where you have strength builds and you can also use maces, longswords? And maybe the legionnaire scout in Da:A as well.
So what would be a good build for this?
For the skills, blade, light armor, block, sneak, armorer, blunt, hand to hand?
When would blade or blunt or hand to hand function better than the other?
What better alternatives do you think work better?

thanks

I play WoW as well and have a lvl 80 rogue. I also play Oblivion on a regular basis and I have a stealth type character. As far as blade or blunt or hand to hand it rly just depends on your race you choose to make your rogue with. Certain races get certain bonuses so it's rly all about the race you choose. I would suggest taking alchemy, but that is just me and I've always loved alchemy in Morrowind and it means just as much to me in Oblivion. You could easily go with the choices you have listed, but it will slow your lvling down quiet a bit, bc you'd have to lvl blunt or blade or hand to hand. So if your looking for a slow lvling strength rogue it looks pretty good. I would suggest you pick up security as a major skill as well and instead of light armor use heavy armor bc it will help build your strength. Hope you found this useful. Happy Adventures in Cyrodill.

I'd pick one melee skill, blade personally. Drop the other two for conjuration. Conjuration to cut down on inventory weight I'd keep one or two short blades for sneak attacks, conjuration for conjuring a shield (unless you find a good enchanted one) and long blade, I'd also probably drop armorer for marksman and just carry arrows conjure bow sneak attack with a bow can kill fast but sometimes it draws multiple enemies and its nice to fall back on melee or magic imo. Illusion for chameleon and other shenanigans like charm or frenzy and ya know illusion just all around fits a stealthy type person.. that or I'd use destruction magic because sometimes a strong spell can be very useful.
Alteration magic is also a good choice I like it for opening locks. Stealthy person needs to get around through security so it'd fit with the character and it has other practical uses.

My take on it would look something like this..

Imperial

Birth Sign: The Warrior

Style: Stealth

Blade
Block
Security
Sneak
Light Armor
Marksman
Armorer

Basically I dislike the build you chose. You have too many weapon skills. With the leveling curve in this game you want only weapon skill because if you level too much but have low skills/stats the enemies will out level you. So for melee you should have one choice. I thought in this case it'd make sense to go blade. It's up to you however you could choose blunt instead. The birth sign gives you higher strength and endurance starting out while your stealth skills will start out higher and "level faster." I would say replace armorer with Alchemy but alchemy levels too quickly so it's best left minor. Make sure to utilize poisons. You also have arrows for long range stealth attacks and to use a bow. Being a combat rogue in oblivion you have block to protect yourself from attacks head on while security, sneak, and light armor are no brainers as they define you as a "Rogue." So if I was going to make a combat Rogue in oblivion I'd go with something like this and name the class something like.. "Bandit" or "Highwayman" Your primary attributes would, of course, be Endurance, Strength, and Agility.

You'll be sneaky but more than a match in head to head combat. Race is preference but I feel Imperial is very balanced. If you want to go more combat oriented you can easily go red guard to make an excellent "Warrior" right away (Same for Orc and Nord) or if you want to be more "Thief like" starting out you can easily go Khajit or Bosmer.

Yeah, my build kinda svcks. I usually use either full stealth builds or full magic builds but never combined.
Well, now for specificity, here's what I'm looking for.
Healing skills, summoning, semi-rogue/warrior (basically means like a rogue but you can also take more damage than a regular rogue can. Like a legionnaire scout in dragon age awakening)
Should I add other kinds of magic as well or will that be too much? Like add in destruction, alteration?

See nothing wrong with the build myself, sneak with a preference for up and close if possible. Blunt work just as well as blade, block as you are not afraid of a fight if the sneak attack fails.
Security is pretty redundant because of the skeleton key but you probably know, alchemy is minor unless you want a challenging start.

You will be drawn between archery and blade, archery sneak attack is a magnitude easier at low sneak levels so you might prefer it, if you prefer melee archery will easy fall behind and be most useful for poison at range however you will do well anyway.
For magic destruction will replace marksmanship as both has ranged capabilities and you don't need three attack skills. Don't use high level alteration much myself, Illusion might replace security, frenzy is always fun and invisibility/ chameleon is nice if you want to do something illegal. Conjugation is for company not that you would need much backup and an decoy scamp is easy to cast.

NB: if you call your class highwayman you must play a Kajitt, if not see how many non kajiit highwaymen you find.

I am not sure what the concept of Rogue is you picture. But something similar to the stock class is what I think of, almost a cutpurse, almost a bard, almost duelist, always cocky and out for a quick buck, but having a somewhat intact sense of honor is what I think of.

For this game I generally would just pick Blade, unless you want Blunt also for roleplay purposes, it can be kind of fun to pick up a good enchanted Blunt to use just for the duration of the dungeon crawl you are in, then just keep your favorite Blade on you.

As for skills, consider using Illusion if you are willing and able to get spell making and make short duration Command spells of about 4-5 secs as they will work fine for much longer than that duration. It works great to winow down multiple opponents, then you can have a Mano a Mano duel with the last one.

My Rogue types are generally unarmored as I sort of picture them that way, and eventually Command will be adversely affected by the 25 level cap if wearing Armor.

Speechraft is a must for RP, and it works great as a place filler to slow leveling if you choose not to use it much.

Oh and for weapons it is better to stick mostly with one in order to get your skill up, then get your strength up, and when you do sneak attacks with a blade you can actually work it where you kill most stuff or almost. If you split your skill between two weapons it is less effective.

ty.
I've finally decided on these skills.
Blade
Armorer
Block
Light/Heavy Armor (which one should I choose?) What kind of armor do knights/paladins/druids usually wear?
Conjuration
Restoration
Athletics.

Which race should I pick and sign attributes?
I was thinking of redguard.

Btw, I also have a offtopic question.
In most rpgs, are knights/paladins/druids like the kind of character that takes lots of damage with really high defense skills while other other classes like mages, archers, rogues rely on evasion?

thanks

In most rpgs druids are nature casters who don't take damage. They use nature orienteded magic. Knights/warriors/the like typically have high endurance, high hp, and do decent damage while taking the brunt of the force. Paladins are on the same line but aren't as good as it as the warrior but make up for it with spell casting abilities and minor restoration. Mages in MOST rpgs don't have high invasion. They focus on not getting hit at all and using pure power to destroy their opponents before they retaliate. Archers/Rogues/Assassins focus on dps while dodging and evading attacks rather than taking them head on and either use poisons/sneak attacks/cheap tactics/attacking from range and more in order to be successful. This is going by "Most rpgs" of course.

RPG stuff tended to evolve from real life stuff
Heavily armored knights/paladins are the evolution of hoplite warfare, thick cuirass/helmet/leg guards/shield changing over time to armoring everything for more protection.
Archers in that time would be less armored to prevent the armor getting in way of the bowstring or a poorer person that could afford to fight but not as a heavily armored Calvary knight because armor was expensive and they would need to move fast to get in shooting range and avoid getting charged by a phalanx of infantry or cavalry.
Where as samurai for instance started out as archers and evolved into sword fighting knights but their armor was still often lighter with less protection to work better with a bow and eventually got more heavily armed sometimes modifying European plate briastplates into the design for more protection.
Druids in RPG's would typically fall into a roguish type, in real life they'd be more like a tribes spiritual leaders no idea what kind of weapons or if any armor they would wear maybe chainmail if it was available definitely light armor they'd most likely be ceremonially dressed I imagine.
Mages can do whatever they want, they're magical they defy the rules of reality a sorcerer or mage in real life would inspire so much terror by having supernatural powers (like a druid) most people wouldn't want to fight them thus sort of negating their need for armor at all but whats to stop them from wearing whatever kind they can get it.
Rogues are like bandits they'd be sneaky and cruel and use whatever armor or weapons they can find if it helps them take what they want.

what do you mean mages don't have high evasion. You just said that they focus on not getting hit at all, isn't that evasion o.o
Btw, just one other offtopic question. What would define a game that emphasizes more on evasion? (When I say evasion I don't primarily mean dodging. For example you can evade attacks by stunning or interrupting people like in assassins' creed)
Would god of war 3 emphasize on evasion or ninja gaiden sigma? You can evade in both games.

If you want to go by real history Samurai were always archers first and foremost. Their armor was designed around protecting them from the commonly used arrows. They simply became superior over time and improved as every nation improves their armor. On top of that their armor, especially under rain, was always heavier than a suit of platemail despite what many think. Also, Samurai have always used their Katanas strictly for duels and off duty work. On the battlefield the Katana is always a last resort weapon focusing more on the Yari and Bow.

As for what I mean by mages.. they focus on not getting hit by having companions (in traditional rpgs) keeping the enemies off them or using their pure offensive ability to kill their opponent before they close in on them. If an enemy got in their face they don't dodge around. In traditional rpgs.. they died or killed their enemy first. You bring up traditional rpgs but then talk about modern action games. Typically evasion means the ability to dodge. If you're not evading you're not using evasion but evasion isn't the only means to keep an enemy off you. In this games acrobats comes closes to being evasion in that you can dodge and roll when your levels are higher in it.

In this game I'd put God of War 3 as a warrior with high strength, endurance, agility, and acrobatics. Ninja Gaiden a magic using assassin that focuses heavily on acrobatics but I wouldn't call him a "Traditional rogue." He doesn't do much lock picking, pick pocketing, and the like. I'd coin that as an assassin.

Evasion, is pretty much dodging. And dodging means slipping way or getting away. And that is very general. You can evade an enemy, get away from him, but kiting. And when you kite you can either stun them to slow them down or employ various methods and skills to either slow them down so that you can kill them before they get close to you. And when you get close to a mage, they can teleport in some rpgs, and in others they can stun you or freeze you or w/e to keep you away. And rogues do pretty much the same thing except with poison, degenerative damage that also help kill off the player faster.

In my opinion, pretty much every class besides warrior use evasion.
This is how I see it. In rpgs, there are mainly two playstyles. Either taking loads of damage, such as in tanking, like for warriors, OR using evasion, which in other words, is killing people while evading attacks.

And I relate rpgs to modern action games because they are somewhat related.
I mean, in god of war 3, imo, it's an idiot going around impaling people. That's the farthest you can get from the way rogues/rangers/mages/etc.. fight. It's pure destruction, the evasion is so miniscule that it can be ignored.
But when I see gameplay videos of ninja gaiden, I see more reliance on evasion and counterattacks instead of going in and bashing the first people you see.

Also, I see some "rogue warriors" such as legionnaire scouts in dragon age awakening that have more defense abilities than a rogue. But nonetheless, they are still a rogue and therefore have the skills of a rogue. Imo, a good similarity would be Ezio from assassins' creed 2, where you can wield maces and axes and take some damage but not as much as a warrior could. You still rely a lot on evasion.

I mean, what other similarities do you see between rogues, archers, mages?
So what's your opinion on this?

Traditional is tradition. Traditional mages did not use evasion. Think in terms of D&D. That's the traditional mage. The traditional mage did not kite. If he was caught in melee by a warrior he was dead. If an assassin catches him, he's dead. If you mean more modern RPGS or Action RPGS then yes everyone uses some form of evasion. Going by that you can even claim that the warrior uses evasion too by blocking attacks. Dodging and what isn't dodged or blocked his high hp soaks it up but typically in rpg terms evasion is dodging and dodging is agility. There's no agility involved in paralizing an opponent and running away to get some distance to lay down some more fire power. Agility is something an acrobat has or in your case Ninja Gaiden. A lot of rolling, quick side steps, back hand springs this is very agile based. Rogues don't do the same thing in most rpgs. Rogues have something that most mages lack in most rpgs even modern ones. That's agility. The ability to actually dodge or avoid the attack without resorting to a spell to do it. They're more reflex and think on their feet quicker. The opposite of a fighter who slowly circles his opponent blocking with a shield and striking with an opening.

To put it into more of a perspective. Ninja Gaiden. Do you think a mage is going to pull off those moves? Not likely. He likely won't run as quick. Won't do fancy rolls. He's just going to paralize you and retreat to get some distance. While this is evasion it isn't agility but I don't see the point in this conversation or how it relates to the topic at hand? It's degenerated into a conversation about what is evasion? And you're right everything using evasion to some degree, especially in modern games, if you're not avoiding your opponent you're getting hit and not many want that but there's a clear difference between how a rogue fights and how a mage fights.

I know what you mean about a rogue warrior. That's kind of what I posted for you (not the only way to go about it I know.) Birth Sign The warrior starts you off with high strength/endurance. Both Long blade and block means you'll be using sword and shield. Most see a shield as a warrior tool but in this case you'll be using a shield. I see a Rogue Warrior in oblivion as someone who sneaks, steals, pick pockets, and strikes while being hidden but stands and fights like a warrior. Even if he's more lightly armored he'll be sporting a long sword instead of a dagger and a shield. A thief but with a fighter personality just more cautious and clever than to just run in there.

Yes, this discussion as of now is about evasion
I said evading attacks. If I said evading damage, then blocking would include it.
okay, I hate to disagree with you, but I honestly do not agree with the agility thing at all.
First of all, according to you, evasion is agility right?
Now, going by your "traditional rpgs", rogues actually use stealth rather than agility. Look at all those assassin games out there, all of them center around stealth with agility as a backup. Stealth is a category of evasion. Evasion simply means avoiding damage and avoiding attacks. You can do that in numerous ways and stunning is one of them. Kiting is also a strategy and is a sub-branch of evasion. Plus, mages don't need agility. Because they have possibly even better movement skills such as teleportation.
And honestly, a lot of "traditional rpgs" aren't really that common nowadays. I'm pretty sure traditional rogues use daggers. Now they let rogues use those nice little maces and axes as well.
And btw, what else do you think mages and rogues have in common? I'm pretty sure it's about evasion >.<
Oh and snipers/rangers are not that agile and probably aren't related to rogues eh? So a sniper lying down in the mountains and scouting stealthily isn't evading detection?

Rogues and Mages have very little in common except that both of them dislike taking hits and both rely on not taking hits in completely different ways. Agility isn't evasion. It's a form of evasion. If you are dodging, jumping, and what not you're using agility and practicing the art of evasion. It's just Evasion and Agility aren't mutually exclusive. You don't need agility to be an expert on evasion in the basic sense of the word but Rogues are typically very agile guys. Even in games where Rogues do use stuns heavily they typically also have a very high chance to dodge an enemie's attack in one method or another. In oblivion, however, Mages don't have teleport abilities. Killing things come in the form of running backwards and unleashing spells (kiting), paralyzing an enemy when they get too close using the illusion school, using a high level burdon on an armored opponent to make him over encumbered, draining the target's speed, and much more. Of course those methods are all evasion in some form. Yet the Mage differs from the Rogue in that in the end one is a ranged fighter and the other still prefers his battles in most cases to be up close. That and the Mage is a master of Magic while the Rogue typically uses mundane tools at his disposal and/or a highly extensive knowledge in human anatomy to hit vital spots that would prevent the opponent from fighting as effectively as he would.

I still don't see where this conversation is going. We're discussing semantics. We agree but we're using different terms to say the exact same thing. In the end we agree that if we're discussing the class of the guy in God of War 3 he's a Warrior and that Ninja Gaiden is obviously an assassin. As in the character from Assassin's creed. The difference between the Rogue and Assassin is that the Rogue at his core is a shrewd but very charismatic thief that functions better in a fight due to his high skill and quick wits and the assassin focuses almost entirely on stealthily killing targets and much less at sneaking past opposition and stealing that expensive jeweled crowd right from under the king's nose to make a pretty decent profit.

Your last point brings up one good point. Again, I know that they practice the art of evasion but I prefer to use the term "Avoidance." In the Elderscrolls, however, it seems agility is more dexterity rather than it is.. actually agility. In morrowind it was a combination of both. Agility allowed you to dodge attacks easier while improving your performance with a bow. So in Oblivion while Archers have high "Agility" I think the only skill that truly resembles "Agility" in the typical sense of the term is acrobatics.

So we're both basically saying that every class besides warriors have evasion in similarity?
Btw, do you agree that the main playstyles are evasion and tanking? And that everything but warriors fall under evasion. Fine if you want call it avoidance.
I was really confused about the rogue class. In the beginning I thought they just used daggers and were agile and stealthy.
Then I researched a bit and found quite a few rpgs allowed rogues to use hammers, axes, swords. Then animes such as bleach and naruto depict rogue/thief/assassin/ninja-like characters using forms of magic in the names, kido and jutsus.
So basically, I was seeing this one class, a rogue, using all the weapons from all the classes, besides 2h weapons.
Then, after viewing some builds, I find that some rogue pretty much fight the same way mages do since a lot of things were interrelated EXCEPT for warriors since they're completely different. Now, after researching even more in rpgs like wow, I find stealth was not only limited to rogues. Mages were able to utilize stealth as well. (You can do that too in oblivion with invisibility.)
And after researching EVEN MORE, I find that a lot of classes share same things. For example, all classes can cause degenerative damage, They can all interrupt.

And then this is basically what was going through my mind.
I see combat rogues in wow. They are not subtlety rogues which means they don't use stealth. Nor do they use agility or backflips or whatever. And if I want to compare an action-adventure game and only choose those with stealth and agility, that means I'll be missing out on those other types of rogues. So what do they all share? Fine you say when they dodge they use agility.
let's look at ranger classes. They are a sub-branch of rogues in dragon age and aion which means they are related to rogues right?
And they kite and mostly use bows and arrows.
So really the only way to encompass all the kinds of rogues/thieves/assassins/ninjas is this word.
Evasion.

Get why I'm talking about evasion now?

Yes that's correct. See, in the end there's not much difference. In oblivion you design the character the way you want him to be but there's mechanical advantages. Example, if you're hidden in stealth and in sneak mode and strike an enemy you do a damage bonus. This damage bonus deals a lot more damage than say a long sword when used with a dagger. Which gives incentive for those with sneaky types to use a poisoned dagger than say a two handed warhammer. The difference? If you're wearing heavy armor in oblivion and try to sneak up on someone they'll likely hear the sound of your armor and turn to fight you. So if you want to be stealthy you're better off in lighter armor. So if you want to be a true master of stealth and get every advantage as possible it's best (but you're not forced) to use light armor and a dagger. Oblivion is designed to be more realistic than most games. In real life if you're a thief nothing is stopping you from wielding a claymore but a fighter is going to be a lot more effective in an "In your face" battle than you'll be.

So the real heavy difference in a rogue fight from a warrior/mages? You're going to be in the shadows. You're going to want the enemy to face away from you. You're going to want to slowly creep up behind him with your poisoned blade and strike him for some heavy damage. From there the fight doesn't end up that much different from a warriors or mage. You're either going to fight him with a good start of health since you hit him first or you're going to use poison to paralize him and slice him up while he helplessly lays there but this is a key difference between the styles. The warrior is going to charge in. The rogue is going to sneak in, wait, hit the enemy while he's unprepared, and the mage is going to go in and start throwing some heavy damaging spells (in most cases.) The warrior is also not going to pick every lock and isn't going to see a shiny item behind a counter and go "Ooo. Tonight I'm going to sneak in and take it." That's likely the Rogue's job. In Oblivion Mages can go invisible but Thief types typically rely on shadows and actually physically sneaking. It's not like wow where you ARE invisible. As a thief if you're in the light and they're looking in your direction. They can see you.

So in the end the difference is about approach and mindset. Rogues like to dodge and wear people down. The warriors like to beat people down and soak up as much of the damage as they can and the mages don't like to be hit at all. The Rogues have to be more reactive than the Mage and have quicker thinking capabilities if they're not using paralysis. In the end the Rogue and Mage might seem similar? But again, approach and mindset on how to GO ABOUT IT are very different. Example "Warrior in my face, quick, paralize him with my paralysis spell! Now fall back so I can continue to blast him." Rogue, "claymore! Roll to the side. He's swinging it again. Roll to the side. Oh, I see I have a moment to attack. Slash slash. He's attacking me! Roll." It still makes for a very different game.

Yes I do get why you're using evasion but realize different games and different genre have a different idea on what Rogues are. Although, I disagree what you say about WoW. I used to play it and have a combat rogue. Especially in pvp you use stealth heavily but don't use daggers much. In fact Maces were my thing because I had a chance at dazing a target with them. If you rushed at a warrior without nailing them from stealth first. True me. You're going to die. Same goes if you rush at most classes. Stealth was still very important. Stealth is something that defines a Rogue. A ranger isn't a Rogue. Not in my eyes. A ranger is an archer type with some melee abilities. An archer is a pure marksman. What defines them is their role in complete range and using bows and arrows. So no I disagree on them being Rogues. Especially given the fact that the very definition of rogue is a dishonest person, a scoundrel, a cheat. Not all archers and rangers are scoundrels or cheats. Not all are thieves either.

What do you think about what I said of rogues using magic based on anime btw o.o
This is what I was thinking about.
Like for example I was thinking that grand theft auto and red dead redemption were roguelike because they had kiting? what do you think of that?
So I said evasion because it encompasses kiting, stealth. And degenerative damage and all those interrupting and stuns are not a must. But evasion is. So what do you think of that?

I always felt Naruto's take on Ninja is extremely fantasy. They hardly represent the traditional "Ninja." and Bleach focuses on "Samurai/Ninjas who fight ghosts." as a basic premise. There's no rogues here. Realize also that the Japanese and the West have very different ideas on things. Especially when it comes to fantasy. Western fantasy and rpgs typically don't do well over there. A good example is that WoW bombed in Japan. At the same time I disagree with Aions view of "Rogue." as I said.

k thanks.
Let's get back on the topic. This is purely subjective anyways. I tend to like to look at the entire picture and include every single aspect that is related to the thing I am looking for.
Btw do you think tactical shooters like rainbow six is roguish? I mean rogues use tactics and you use cover in rainbow six to avoid getting shot.

Soo, strength and endurance?
What do you think of this.
Armorer
Block
Blade
Heavy Armor
Athletics
Conjuration
Restoration.

I would drop armorer for sneak or athletics for acrobatics, just because acrobatics is easier to control when leveling up.

I don't know about rainbow six but for a modern rogue I'd say the main character in the movie District B-13 was a great modern rogue. Cool movie if you're alright with subtitles and R rated titles.

shoudl I have more than one combat skill? Like blade and blunt.

and how do I get enough intelligence to cast the highest level conjuration and restoration skills?

Typically you need to be a mage to do that. The main way is apprentice/atronach signs giving 100-150 extra magicka respectively. Also enchanting each piece of clothing/armor with 50 fortify magicka sigil stones or enchanting it with fortify magicka gets you enough. Of course as a rogue or warrior there might be other enchants you'd prefer. Your style.