It doesn't matter though if these stats exist in skyrim, what they represented remains the same, a hand was nearly twice as strong and the stronges a mortal could become. They were much faster than the fastest a mortal could become, the had far greater endurance and thus could take a greater beating than even the most durable mortal could. That's what those stats represents.
-valid point. But we don't know how strong a Thu'um user could be in terms of stats. In the Lore there are all kinds of things they are supposed to be able to do. It is possible they could supplement their own shortcomings with the Voice to become as strong as the Hands were.

Sure it is, but stardard magic is much more so.
-yet there is never talk of a mage bringing down city walls with sheer power. I think the Thu'um is much more powerful. It is presented as such in the Lore as well.

sure, go ahead, though to point out, Almalexia refers to her hand that you have to beat in the Tribunal main quest as a master war wizard, not just a master warrior. They weren't just good with swords and armor, they were masters of art of combat, including magical ones.
-valid point

Here you are pointing to an individual skill completely unrelated to thu'um or "thu'um masters" it something some one good with dual wielding can do. and in regards to speed, a hand is well above what any mortal can achieves, without magic.
-this was more in regards to the elemental fury shout so it does apply. This would likely make them just as fast as the Hand if it came to hand to hand combat though the skill deficiency would still be in favor of the Hand obviously.

Can be done with regular magic, nothing special or unique.
-but it is more powerful than the spell version, so it is special and unique.

They shoot forward fast, with little control or finess, and again, something that can be done with normal magic, neither unique or special either.
-as far as we know a Thu'um user could have control. But if timed right(and a master should have good timing) it could lead to a possibly undodgeable strike.

All can be done just as easily and just as well with destruction magic. Again, nothing special.
-except it can be done hands free and has little predictability. Every time the Thu'um master breathes the Hand would have to be wary of a new possible danger.

Prety good, but can be resisted with simple magica resistance spell, which the hands have imbued into their very being.
-does magicka resistance apply to Thu'ums?



Dragon Call is something unique the the dragonborn though, not something just any thu'um master can do so it doesn't count, but even then, if town guards can take down a dragon...
-lore not game mechanics and I put it small for a reason. I was half joking lol. In theory the Hands could call upon Almalexia for help if this was prior to the Nerevarine time period. I think we could guess who would win between a god and a dragon...

storm call this is the real trump card for a thu'um master, and perhaps the biggest threat the hand would have to face, but simple resist lightning takes most of it's punch away.
-it takes the punch away true but if called it would be a constant danger.

1,000,000 cliff racers verses every ones favorite red dragon!!!

You know I did kind of forget the Hands were master wizards as well...

But even though I somewhat agree with you I still feel like they would be pretty evenly matched. Btw can you resist Thu'ums in Skyrim? I never have and I know other creatures have not in my game at least.

To me the Thu'um feels like a more powerful version of magic that has less finesse. It is more raw and less refined in other words. If you get hit with a thu'um i think it is going to hurt lol

Book stories though, (which might or might not be accurate or embelished) if you want to go with that for thu'um, than you have to treat normal magic the same way, because in books (and even in game to some degree) it is unlimited and does everything from creating pocket dimensions to raising entire armies of the dead to teleporting entire islands away.

From the most elite of the elite of the Master of mages. They're usually very old mages, too. Yes, the best mages could probably match Ysmir. Most however, cannot.

Lore wise, you won't do well against a fire ball to the face, either. Nor a sword wound to the gut.

That's Ysmir though. How many have matched his skill with the Thu'um? It's a bit like bringing up the Nerevarine or Dragonborn in the debate. These individuals were special and unique. Hard to compete against them.

Also, as you point out yourself, the the most elite master mages could probably match him, and it's safe to say that their have been form more numerous of them than masters of Thu'um that could do it.

But in the time of the Tongues, the Nords also respected mages. But I doubt they could match what others had.

And I'm talking about levels like Divayth Fyr. Remember, Ysmir is an incarnation of Lorkhan.

Guys, the thu'um we see ingame is nowhere near the full potential of shouts. Ysmir could shout entire villages into the sea, another of the old chieftains could control the tide of battle by shout-singing. Her hands are insane conventional warriors, but the thu'um is an insane game changer.

The skill and power of Her Hands is supposed to be legendary, and even if they are perhaps the most skilled warrior-order I think they might be extagerated a bit in this thread. A Thu'um master usually cannot speak without causing major destruction, even killing those who are not trained in the voice, though he skill is so rare those who are skilled in it will likely not be true masters like the Greybeards, so the Hands would probably outmatch any "normal" users of the Thu'um.

Well they are also mages and warriors...I say that makes them more or less even. But thats just my opinion. A Hands survivor in the timeframe of Skryim would probably get their ass handed to them by a Thu'um user unless the enchantments places on their bodies by Almalexia were permanent.

Another thing going for the Hands was experience though. They are long lived Dunmer who all are supposedly skilled mages and they have been blessed with some of the divine power of Lorkhan through Almalexia. Pretty much screams long life. So if that age likely comes with experience. Soooo...even in my book

The Lessons are 'just' stories? Vivec had the power to remake himself in the image of his desires, and irrevocably break time so that he existed as a god before he was born as a mortal. Who's to say the warrior-poet didn't change the course of history in that red moment as well?

Yea great point muertos.couldntve said it better myself. Look, let's b clear. the tablets on Hrothgar confirm the lessons. They're not just mythologies. They're accounts by a superior being. If say they're more than historical accounts buddy. I'd say that the way vivec defeated ysmir was accurate. he was a living being. And he had no reason to lie about it or exaggerate it.
On your grounds we could argue whether the ministry of truth flew on its own account and if the ghost fence wasn't actually held by the tribunals power and the departed Dunmer spirits. It's the same.
It's canon that the nords left resdayn with their tails between their legs. So came the way of the voice.

You apparently did not get what I meant and I WAS overly critical so that may be my fault. The events themselves most likley happened but not in the way Vivec said it or do you think he/she didn't use Kagrenacs tools to become a god? When he/she admits that he/she did iirc. That does not match up with the 36 sermons of vivec. The sermons seem like propaganda for the Tribunal Temple imo. Sure Vivec may have wrote them but he/she is not exactly benevolent...

Vivec wrote them specifically for the Nerevarine, not for the rest of the Tribunal temple. It's supposed to teach the Nerevarine things, prepare him/her for what is to come. Also he says in the 36 lessons, through code, that he did kill Nerevar. Or at least part of him did.

Sure some of it may be over the top, but it's not propoganda for the people in the temple either.

Vivec was no fool. his only regret in life was the betrayal of Nerevar. The lessons are HIS accounts. The lessons are not propaganda.

Though you can kinda-almost stump him when you accuse him of causing innocent people suffer.

But the lessons are mystical texts, and as such I feel aren't intended to be a straight-road anywhere. They're supposed to confuse you, twist your little noodle into all kinds of interesting species of knot until the answer erupts deep in-side. In that way the answer is your own hard won prize and not just the mindless, by-rote regurgitation of spoon-feed answers. This, by the way, is also the meaning of CHIM.