Heretics & Hungers

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 7:31 pm

The best SI would be a completely normal, uninteresting bit of land.

"It's too basic and boring! Where am I? I couldn't be in Sheogorath's realm? Could I?"
User avatar
Andrea P
 
Posts: 3400
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:45 am

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 3:33 pm

So real short. The idea is that the Heretics want Sheogorath out and because Boethia is the sort of god that is into overthrowing legitimate authority, her Hungers hang out with the Heretics. Correct?

The Zealots have the Hungers. Weird.

The Heretics have the Flesh Atronachs. Weird.

I'd think something to switched around somewhere.
User avatar
Bloomer
 
Posts: 3435
Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 9:23 pm

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 5:01 pm

it's been a little while since I've travelled through madness... I honestly can't remember for the life of me if the Heretics were chillin' with the Hungers or Flesh Atronachs.
User avatar
Bones47
 
Posts: 3399
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:15 pm

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 8:49 pm

Zealots have flesh atronachs. Heretics have hungers. It's the way you'd expect it to be.
User avatar
barbara belmonte
 
Posts: 3528
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:12 pm

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 7:25 am

Alright, just to get it straight, it's the Heretics that want to depose Sheogorath. It's also the Heretics that summon Boethiah's Hungers. Now we're cool, right? :tops:
User avatar
Hairul Hafis
 
Posts: 3516
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:22 am

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 3:10 pm

well, at least that little confusion is set straight.

TWM - I do think that you may be onto something with the Heretics and Hungers.
User avatar
Andrea P
 
Posts: 3400
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:45 am

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 2:13 pm

well, at least that little confusion is set straight.

TWM - I do think that you may be onto something with the Heretics and Hungers.

Thank you, drucifer4, for your concurrence.

I had originally thought that the Tsaesci sword(s) Dawnfang/Duskfang, which the Champion of Cyrodiil used to effectively dethrone Sheogorath could have been some behind-the-scenes support from the Mistriss of Dawn and Dusk, Daedra Lord Azura, who, as a "Good Daedra", has every reason to hate the Mad God (due to being a "Bad Daedra" and Vivec's legal counsel at the trial where she fell victim to a public [censored] by Vivec). However, I read in http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/se03grommoksjournal.shtml that it was a orc warrior that named it such. :shrug:

We'll keep trying, won't we?

___TWM
User avatar
Nuno Castro
 
Posts: 3414
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:40 am

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 7:15 pm

Thank you, drucifer4, for your concurrence.

I had originally thought that the Tsaesci sword(s) Dawnfang/Duskfang, which the Champion of Cyrodiil used to effectively dethrone Sheogorath could have been some behind-the-scenes support from the Mistriss of Dawn and Dusk, Daedra Lord Azura, who, as a "Good Daedra", has every reason to hate the Mad God (due to being a "Bad Daedra" and Vivec's legal counsel at the trial where she fell victim to a public [censored] by Vivec). However, I read in http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/se03grommoksjournal.shtml that it was a orc warrior that named it such. :shrug:

We'll keep trying, won't we?

___TWM

But wasn't Sheogorath a Good daedra in Morrowind, with Azura? That what i was told.
User avatar
Marcia Renton
 
Posts: 3563
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:15 am

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 6:13 am

Muthsera,

No, Sheogorath is an enemy to your Master.

"The Three Good Daedra, Boethiah, Azura, and Mephala, recognized the Divinity of the Triune Ancestors (Blessed Be Their Holy Names). The Rebel Daedra, Molag Bal, Malacath, Sheogorath, and Mehrunes Dagon, refused to swear fealty to the Tribunal (Blessed Be Their Holy Names), and their worshippers were cast out. ... These Rebel Daedra thus became the Four Corners of the House of Troubles, and they continue to plague our tranquility and tempt the unwary into Heresy and Dark Worship. The Priests of the Temple remain ever vigilant for signs of the Adversaries' return, sometimes aided by the loyal Three Good Daedra, who are familiar with the wiles of their rebellious kin. (http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/anticipations.shtml)

___TWM
User avatar
(G-yen)
 
Posts: 3385
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:10 pm

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 5:16 am

Muthsera,

No, Sheogorath is an enemy to your Master.

"The Three Good Daedra, Boethiah, Azura, and Mephala, recognized the Divinity of the Triune Ancestors (Blessed Be Their Holy Names). The Rebel Daedra, Molag Bal, Malacath, Sheogorath, and Mehrunes Dagon, refused to swear fealty to the Tribunal (Blessed Be Their Holy Names), and their worshippers were cast out. ... These Rebel Daedra thus became the Four Corners of the House of Troubles, and they continue to plague our tranquility and tempt the unwary into Heresy and Dark Worship. The Priests of the Temple remain ever vigilant for signs of the Adversaries' return, sometimes aided by the loyal Three Good Daedra, who are familiar with the wiles of their rebellious kin. (http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/anticipations.shtml)

___TWM

O, it was Mephala that was the other good Daedra...
Then the Good Daedra might be manipulating Sheo's Realm. But why would they do that? Don't they have anything better to do than wage secret wars with each other?
User avatar
Tania Bunic
 
Posts: 3392
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:26 am

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 6:24 pm

Well, what else are they gonna do? Aside from a fun little distraction with Mundus, the Lords of Misrule have to keep themselves occupied somehow.
User avatar
Jarrett Willis
 
Posts: 3409
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:01 pm

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 5:48 pm

Something better to do with their time? I will allow this little dialog between Cyrus the Restless and Clavicus Vile speak for itself on that topic:

Cyrus: So this is what the Daedra Lords do in their free time. Trade souls, destroy lives, and loaf in the sun...

Clavicus Vile: You poor, poor thing. All our time is free time. It's eternity, man. Don't you think that gets a bit tedious? Mostly it's the same thing, over and over, so boring. But you... Well, you kill your sister's husband, then let her lose her soul, then... ...You come here and threaten to beat up the big nasty Daedra Lord to get her back... Well... It's stupid and silly... But... It's not... Boring.


And as for Boethiah, He/She plainly states during His/Her Tournament that the Dunmer are His/Her favorite people. Sheogorath, on the other hand, very plainly tries to do harm to the Dunmer by being a Rebel Daedra, such as when the Mad God tricked the moon, Baar Dau into crashing into the city of Vivec, only to be frozen in place above the metropolis by the Warrior-Poet himself as the Ministry of Truth.

So, to answer your question, the Daedric nature of Change lends itself quite well to eternal conflict.

___The Word Merchant of Julianos
User avatar
Alisha Clarke
 
Posts: 3461
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:53 am

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 6:02 am

Something better to do with their time? I will allow this little dialog between Cyrus the Restless and Clavicus Vile speak for itself on that topic:
And as for Boethiah, He/She plainly states during His/Her Tournament that the Dunmer are His/Her favorite people. Sheogorath, on the other hand, very plainly tries to do harm to the Dunmer by being a Rebel Daedra, such as when the Mad God tricked the moon, Baar Dau into crashing into the city of Vivec, only to be frozen in place above the metropolis by the Warrior-Poet himself as the Ministry of Truth.

So, to answer your question, the Daedric nature of Change lends itself quite well to eternal conflict.

___The Word Merchant of Julianos

So to sum things up...

Heretics in the Shivering Isles are trying to overthrow Sheogorath. Boethiah and Azura, being apart of the 3 Good Daedra in orrowind, have lent their services to the Heretics supposedly to help them. Boethiah gave them Hungers, and Azura supposedly led Grommok(spelling?) to find Dawn/DuskFang, the Akiviri sword. Sheogorath's association with the House of Troubles has induced this "war".
User avatar
sam
 
Posts: 3386
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:44 pm

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 11:20 am

Not quite sure about Azura having anything to do with Dawn/Duskfang, but yes, that's my theory on the rest of it. Some may disagree, but I find it not only plausible, but probable. Besides, we see the war between the gods in all the games. Sheogorath's attacks on the Tribunal by Sotha Sil slowly getting more and more reclusive and Almalexia finally succumbing to the Mad God's influence by going insane herself. Why wouldn't Boethiah (Almalexia's Anticipation) strike back at the Mad God?

___TWM
User avatar
sw1ss
 
Posts: 3461
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:02 pm

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 3:32 pm

Not quite sure about Azura having anything to do with Dawn/Duskfang, but yes, that's my theory on the rest of it. Some may disagree, but I find it not only plausible, but probable. Besides, we see the war between the gods in all the games. Sheogorath's attacks on the Tribunal by Sotha Sil slowly getting more and more reclusive and Almalexia finally succumbing to the Mad God's influence by going insane herself. Why wouldn't Boethiah (Almalexia's Anticipation) strike back at the Mad God?

___TWM


A better question perhaps.. why would the so called "good" Deadra princes WANT to be in the role of anticipations? And don't forget that at the time of SI, only Vivec is still around, so the initial covenant is most probably null and void. Even if not, it's not enforcable.

I'm not opposed to this theory, but I think the motives are lacking, the princes never really liked ALMSIVI, as can be seen with Azura even before her trial. To them the ALMSIVI is just a bunch of pesky mortals who became powerful enough to give them pause in certain situations.
User avatar
N Only WhiTe girl
 
Posts: 3353
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:30 pm

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 9:07 pm

I'm sure that the Anticipations were never too fond of their Tribunal successors. For example, the Tribunal allowed Boethiah's shrine on Vvardenfell to fall to complete disuse to the point that the Daedric Prince had to ask the Nerevarine to restore the thing. Boethiah never blamed the Dunmer, though. They are his favored people, are they not?

And Azura? We know that she did not care for her successor, Sotha Sil. He dared use the following words directly towards the Mistress of Dawn and Dusk: "the old gods are cruel and arbitrary, and distant from the hopes and fears of mer. Your age is past. We are the new gods, born of the flesh, and wise and caring of the needs of our people. Spare us your threats and chiding, inconstant spirit. We are bold and fresh, and will not fear you." (http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/battle_redmountain.shtml)

As for Vivec's Anticipation, Mephala, the Sermons seem to imply that they maintained a good relationship, however the Webspinner was working directly with what appears to be the Rebel Daedra, Mehrunes Dagon's Mythic Dawn Cult.

1. The Mythic Dawn's influence was instrumental in releasing the Heart of Lorkhan. (See http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/nu-hatta_nu-mantia.shtml#3)

2. Mephala, whether out of anger at being pushed out of the mainstream worship by Vivec (as http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/fire_darkness.shtml contends) or simply because she's a treacherous little b***h, under the guise of the Night Mother (see again http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/fire_darkness.shtml), Mephala's Dark Brotherhood were being sheltered by the Mythic Dawn agentsin Vvardenfell during the Nerevarine Prophecies. (The Grand Master of the Morag Tong, Eno Hlaalu, sends an agent to give an "untimatum" to Carecalmo at the Dagon shrine of Ashalmimikala near the Velothi stronghold of Hlormaren: "either stop aiding the Dark Brotherhood or we wage war on the Dagonites as well".

3. If Mephala and Mehrunes Dagon were allied, then it would clearly explain the title of the book "Fire and Darkness", wouldn't it?

4. Why would Mephala, a Good Daedra, aid a Rebel Daedra like Mehrunes Dagon? Possibly because if the Heart were released like the Mythic Dawn wanted, then it would sever Vivec's divinity, which was what kept her out of the limelight to begin with.

5. Notice how Vivec instituted a Temple "reorganization" after losing his divinity, stating that the Good Daedra were to be worshipped. Mission accomplished, Mephala.


___TWM
User avatar
Robert Jr
 
Posts: 3447
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:49 pm

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 5:18 am

If one takes the following statements into account, then there is a great deal of lore explaining why the Heretics would be using Hungers in their struggle against Sheogorath.



___The Word Merchant of Julianos


I'm playing SI fresh again and I have noticed one thing which probably contradicts your points (not 100% tho). The statues. The isles are riddled with Hunger statues everywhere, all the old ruins etc. Now you could say that the Heretics built them but that doesn't click, they don't build and they live in wilderness (source: http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/sebookhereticalthoughts.shtml)

Another thing is that whoever built them, it was long ago, I'm thinking way long for Boethiah's interrest and concentration span. Of course you could say that time is irrelevant in the planes of Oblivion but that's not true IMHO (remember, the other et'Ada couldn't consciously work before Aka formed).

But it's just a tought. The theory is nice however, I don't have a better one.
User avatar
stacy hamilton
 
Posts: 3354
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:03 am

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 5:15 pm

Sheogorath and Boethiah, assuming their animosity truthful, would have began at odds alongside the Tribunal apotheosis, which was approximately 1E 700. (See http://www.imperial-library.info/history/1.shtml). Assuming that the events of the Shivering Isles occurred in 3E 433, the two Daedric Princes would have been at war for 3,549 years. That's quite a while for statues to get built and get old.

___TWM
User avatar
Stacey Mason
 
Posts: 3350
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:18 am

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 4:32 pm

Sheogorath and Boethiah, assuming their animosity truthful, would have began at odds alongside the Tribunal apotheosis, which was approximately 1E 700. (See http://www.imperial-library.info/history/1.shtml). Assuming that the events of the Shivering Isles occurred in 3E 433, the two Daedric Princes would have been at war for 3,549 years. That's quite a while for statues to get built and get old.

___TWM


I wonder if there are statues of Grumies or other SI inhabitants in the realm of Boe-thi-ah :)
User avatar
Austin England
 
Posts: 3528
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:16 pm

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 8:55 am

It makes sense that Azura and Boethiah and maybe a few other Daedric Princes might be engaging in hostilities with Sheogorath, overtly or covertly. However, I don't really see much sense in the idea that they intended to help the Champion of Cyrodil dethrone him and return him to his former Jyggalag state. I mean, they're the ones that cursed him to begin with, right? Why on earth would they want to undo that and allow Jyggalag to be free again?
User avatar
Jesus Lopez
 
Posts: 3508
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:16 pm

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 10:46 am

I don't think that that would be the case. There is actually nothing in SI to indicate that Azura, Boethiah, or Mephala are helping the PC dethrone Sheogorath. If anything it'd probably be two separate events coinciding with each other. Just because Boethiah is angry at Sheo just because he was messing with his toys doesn't mean that everything that occurs to Sheo is caused by the other princes.
User avatar
lydia nekongo
 
Posts: 3403
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:04 pm

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 3:11 pm

I don't think that that would be the case. There is actually nothing in SI to indicate that Azura, Boethiah, or Mephala are helping the PC dethrone Sheogorath. If anything it'd probably be two separate events coinciding with each other. Just because Boethiah is angry at Sheo just because he was messing with his toys doesn't mean that everything that occurs to Sheo is caused by the other princes.

Yes, but often times one must read in between the lines to uncover the true intentions of someone, or the real meanings of an event. Where to draw the line at fact, and speculation however is where people slip up. And in my opinion, if the Heretics are even able to summon Hungers, that would mean their patron Boethiah is allowing them to summon hungers. This indicates that Boethiah wouldn't be displeased with the Heretics meddling in Sheogorath's affairs. One might also question why the Player Character is permitted to summon the Hunger. Well if you look upon it from a lore point of view, perhaps Boethiah believes if helping the Player Character in getting rid of the old Sheogorath, and freeing Jygallag and taking throne could be aided by his minions, he would surely do it if he felt he wanted to. Or, you can look at it from a gamer's point of view, because after all" It wouldn't be fair if the player couldn't summon awesome creatures".
User avatar
BRAD MONTGOMERY
 
Posts: 3354
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:43 pm

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 7:21 am

But there has been no mention that a Prince 'allows' a summoning of a lesser daedra. The only real mention of the actual summoning of a daedroth was in 2920 (as far as I can remember) and that was just pretty much focusing your energies and speaking an incantation. Notable exceptions being when the King of Senchal got pissed off at a bard and summoned Molag Bal to flatten his hometown of Gilverdale in Valenwood, but that's slightly different.
User avatar
vicki kitterman
 
Posts: 3494
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:58 am

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 7:12 pm

But there has been no mention that a Prince 'allows' a summoning of a lesser daedra. The only real mention of the actual summoning of a daedroth was in 2920 (as far as I can remember) and that was just pretty much focusing your energies and speaking an incantation. Notable exceptions being when the King of Senchal got pissed off at a bard and summoned Molag Bal to flatten his hometown of Gilverdale in Valenwood, but that's slightly different.

If the Prince doesn't have any involvement in it, who does? The Conjurer? Hardly. If The aspiring mage wished to summon something, one doesn't just say " I wanna Hunger", or " I wanna Daedroth". It's a complicated part of magic. And if you are reaching into the world of Oblivion magically to summon a being when you perform a spell, doesn't the Prince of that realm have a say in whether or not the creature is summoned? Perhaps, perhaps not. It may be that until the halt of the Septim Bloodline, that the daedra could not involve themselves with the mortal world. Whether or not allowing a daedra to be summoned falls under this category, is unknown to me. And keep in mind, we are talking about The Shivering Isles, not the mortal world. Because the summoners are summoning from a place outside Nirn, the rules may change. Anything beyond that though is beyond my knowing.
User avatar
Taylah Haines
 
Posts: 3439
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:10 am

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 8:55 pm

Sheogorath and Boethiah, assuming their animosity truthful, would have began at odds alongside the Tribunal apotheosis, which was approximately 1E 700. (See http://www.imperial-library.info/history/1.shtml). Assuming that the events of the Shivering Isles occurred in 3E 433, the two Daedric Princes would have been at war for 3,549 years. That's quite a while for statues to get built and get old.

___TWM


True that, but consider the Shivering Bestiary. While it's author doesn't seem like someone who'd know better, he does seem to suggest that the Hungers are placed on the Isles by Sheogorath himself as servitors and guards. Perhaps the hunger is simply another scamp :). Sort of Daedric low-life.
User avatar
Chris Ellis
 
Posts: 3447
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:00 am

PreviousNext

Return to The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion