Heretics & Hungers : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Fri May 27, 2011 5:40 am

True that, but consider the Shivering Bestiary. While it's author doesn't seem like someone who'd know better, he does seem to suggest that the Hungers are placed on the Isles by Sheogorath himself as servitors and guards. Perhaps the hunger is simply another scamp

. Sort of Daedric low-life.

Maybe, by daedric low life do you mean daedra that kinda just..... hang out everywhere? Don't know what else to call it.

» Fri May 27, 2011 3:35 pm

Maybe, by daedric low life do you mean daedra that kinda just..... hang out everywhere? Don't know what else to call it.

Yes pretty much. Also the http://www.imperial-library.info/interviews/si_interview.shtml suggests that our understanding of even WHAT a Daedra is, and what actually exists in Oblivion is more than limited. I tend to agree, especially after playing SI.

I think that Scamps, Hungers and possibly others represent a sort of lowlife. They might be originally in service of one Prince, but they're too common and many to not be used by others. Not to mention that they are pretty much brainless. That makes it hard for them to specialize, or "have loyalties". They just sort of "are", and which prince takes them under his wing is perhaps almost random.

Note also that my take on things is that there's no Daedra who is truly bound to a Prince, unless forced by some methods. Eg: I can imagine even the Mazken or Aureals to go and work for someone else, but it would take loads of effort, they owe ALOT to Sheogorath (the chimes etc. it's like a free life insurance with added benefits!)

» Fri May 27, 2011 3:00 pm

If the Prince doesn't have any involvement in it, who does? The Conjurer? Hardly. If The aspiring mage wished to summon something, one doesn't just say " I wanna Hunger", or " I wanna Daedroth". It's a complicated part of magic. And if you are reaching into the world of Oblivion magically to summon a being when you perform a spell, doesn't the Prince of that realm have a say in whether or not the creature is summoned? Perhaps, perhaps not. It may be that until the halt of the Septim Bloodline, that the daedra could not involve themselves with the mortal world. Whether or not allowing a daedra to be summoned falls under this category, is unknown to me. And keep in mind, we are talking about The Shivering Isles, not the mortal world. Because the summoners are summoning from a place outside Nirn, the rules may change. Anything beyond that though is beyond my knowing.

I see what you mean about there being differences between Mundus and SI... but I think I didn't fully describe how conjuring was described in 2920. It's not a matter of "I wanna Hunger" but having the mage focusing pretty much all their attention and willpower to an intense degree in trying to make a connection to the daedroth and bringing them over.

» Fri May 27, 2011 9:08 am

Another thing which comes to mind is: "Only the Demented truly appreciate the Hunger" spoken by the priest of Dementia. The meaning could be completely unrelated to hungers tho.

» Fri May 27, 2011 2:13 pm

And another quote.. well not precisely since I forgot the exacts. There's a conversation like this (2 NPCs):

#1: "The Hunger is truly a magnificent Daedra."
#2: "Yes, they are our Lord's Sheogorath's favourite pet"

Or something similar. One could say that the current inhabitants don't know better, or that it doesn't make sense because Heretics use them, but I think it's a perfect explanation.

Heretics use them according to His will. The whole Zealots vs Heretics infighting is just another form of His duality expressing itself IMHO.

It also click with my theory about lesser Daedra being mostly unbound (especially the less intelligent ones).

» Fri May 27, 2011 10:30 am

Heretics use them according to His will. The whole Zealots vs Heretics infighting is just another form of His duality expressing itself IMHO.

It also click with my theory about lesser Daedra being mostly unbound (especially the less intelligent ones).

I agree. I also believe that it doesn't matter one way or another to Boethia that Sheogorath has hungers in his realm. If anything couldn't he be flattered that Sheo wants hungers in his realm in the first place? Just wondering.

» Fri May 27, 2011 5:40 pm

There has been much debate about the nature of the lesser daedra.

For example, http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml#Cyrodiilic holds that the Daedric Princes created the lesser daedra. Additionally, the Daedric Princes did not "cut off" these new creations as did the Aedra and their new mortal world. It appears from this text that the lesser Daedra are simply autonomous parts of the Daedric Prince itself.

However, http://www.imperial-library.info/interviews/si_interview.shtml states that the loyalties of the lesser daedra are complex things which are not fully comprehended by mortals, as evidenced by the Mazken being most recently seen as servants of Mehrunes Dagon.

The sources are conflictng in nature and, at this time, appear to be mutually exclusive. A good argument for the lesser daedra not being "part of" the Daedric Prince can be found in Mortazo's "http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/mortazoarticle01.shtml".

The question still remains unanswered in my eyes, and JHUNAL has not yet seen me worthy to grace me with His bounty-knowledge. Until He does, I remain...

Yours in the Scrolls,

___The Word Merchant of Julianos

» Fri May 27, 2011 7:13 am

There has been much debate about the nature of the lesser daedra.

For example, http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml#Cyrodiilic holds that the Daedric Princes created the lesser daedra. Additionally, the Daedric Princes did not "cut off" these new creations as did the Aedra and their new mortal world. It appears from this text that the lesser Daedra are simply autonomous parts of the Daedric Prince itself.

However, http://www.imperial-library.info/interviews/si_interview.shtml states that the loyalties of the lesser daedra are complex things which are not fully comprehended by mortals, as evidenced by the Mazken being most recently seen as servants of Mehrunes Dagon.

The sources are conflictng in nature and, at this time, appear to be mutually exclusive. A good argument for the lesser daedra not being "part of" the Daedric Prince can be found in Mortazo's "http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/mortazoarticle01.shtml".

The question still remains unanswered in my eyes, and JHUNAL has not yet seen me worthy to grace me with His bounty-knowledge. Until He does, I remain...
Yours in the Scrolls,
___The Word Merchant of Julianos

I agree mostly, it's simply too unclear at the moment. Another thing to take into consideration that hunger statues also appear in New Sheoth as sign-holders. It's one thing is some heretics built them as part of their fort, it's another to use them so in His capital.

As I said my personal view is that lesser Daedra are not bound, and IMHO mortals just wrongly deducted that Hungers are Boethiah's because they first saw them as such. But as you said, it's too unclear for anyone to close the case in one way or another.