I have begun to question whether the heros of the game's are really heros.

The Eternal champion and the hero of the battlespire and hero of shadowkey where all hero's but they seem to be the only hero's the person can actually play and all of them where against jagar tharn.

The hero of daggerfall was mainly just a pawn and not really a hero in the sense.

Cyrus is a rebel to the empire.

the nevirine despite haveing stoped dagoth Ur caused not only the oblivion crisis but also the red year.

The COC helped stop the oblivion crisis but seems to be the most likely person behind giveing umbra to clavicus vile and also became sheogorath and sheogorath caused the MoT to fall on Vivec you may say that it was the old sheogorath but once the COC mantles sheogorath he and the old one are indesiquishable so his predisixrs actions are his actions.

So is it just me or do the heros seem to be the major causes of the disaterous events of the elder scrolls universe?

A hero isn't someone who does grand and lofty deeds. A hero is someone who is extraordinary, a person who can do what others can;t, go where others won't.

The hero of Daggerfall, errand boy though he may be, managed to find the Mantella, no small feat, along with many other things.

The Nerevarine averted an Abomination Apocalypse by stopping Dagoth Ur. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Xanatossvcker he may be, but extraordinary nonetheless. Same with the CoC. He or she may have caused problems in the long run, but things would almost certainly have been worse without them. Also, who was the first person to close a gate, who showed the world there was hope against the tides of Dagon?

maybe i should have changed the name to something else. but it what i mean to say is that in the long run the heros seem to cause the most problems in the end

My nerevarine character was vicious serial killer and monster that killed many people in cold blood, wiped out a whole colony of people, and committed countless fell deeds.

So, no, not much of a hero unless you count anti-heroes.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiHero

I like where this discussion is going. In fact, I've been updating the TVTropes page a bit recently to include this (namely, Xanatos svcker and some others).

Well, how do you base this? yes, the events of Morrowind were really Azura manipulating the Nerevarine into removing the godhood of the Tribunal, indirectly leading to the destruction of Morrowind. However, if he had not, the world would have been overrun with eldritch abominations and all non-corprus beings would be killed outright. The Dunmer are a hardy people, and will survive this cataclysm. So is it really worse?

Also, the CoC may have given Umbra to Vile, or may not have. It may have been any adventurer Vile made a pact with. And even so, nobody knew Umbra would escape the weapon. Even if he did, the CoC did more good than harm, being that Mundus would have been absorbed back into Oblivion and ceased to be as we know it. I guess it's relative though, pricce vs. payoff.

Also, damn you Lycan, you've forced me into a wiki walk. There goes another 9 horus of my life.

Indeed, there seems to be a theme recently with making the various heroes of the games deeds have deadly consequences. But like Lycan said, if they had not done so things could have been much worse.

It really makes me wonder at the creativity of the developers, just as much as some of my favorite fantasy novels if not more.




Woah, I know I haven't read the book, but this is the first time I've heard of Sheogorath being involved. Though it would be an interesting twist; I thought it was just that Vivec disappeared. I must be missing something then :shrug:

sheogorath was the one who tricked the MoT into crashing into vivec city but vivec the god stoped it but it retained it's velocity. once vivec was gone it just contiued on it's course.

Call me an idiot, but how did the Nerevarine cause the Oblivion Crisis?


Its Morrowind lore. Sheo threw the rock at Vivec, and vivec stopped it in midair.

the nevevarine disabled the stone of red mountain and in doing so weakended the barrier between nirn and oblivion. when white gold tower's stone became inactive it fully shut down. If red mountain would have remained active the oblivion crisis wouldn't have happend when the empeoror died.

Oh. Serves me right for never getting the whole towers thing. Oblivion made it seem like the barrier was all to do with th temple of the one.

Oh, I was wondering who they were talking about in the Sermon. Turns out it was Sheogorath then, makes sense

Thanks.


PS I think the only Towers that really matter are Adamantine, Red Mountain, and White Gold, being the most powerful and most important. But even if Red was still up, taking out White Gold might have done the trick (though Dagon might not have been able to appear in all his four armed glory)

I'm sure Falinesti and the other towers are equally important for their own reasons. White-Gold was important because the Ayleids were heavily concerned with metaphysics. Just sayin'

Relatedly, heroes are generally massive elements of change. Alotta change is usually always painful and tragic no matter what they are doing. Besides, would it be better if Morrowind were destroyed, or Dagoth Ur allowed to conquer Tamriel?

That's all from what point of view you look at it from. To some Dunmer, people like Orvas Dren, it would likely have been preferable. Of course, Orvas Dren is a violent, racist bastard. So...

Well merely trading one abomination for another:

1. Vivec getting blown up by the MoT, resulting in Red Mountain blowing up and turning Vvardenfell into a wasteland of a wasteland. All of it gone.

2. All of Morrowind (including what is left of Vvardenfell) getting conquered by tribal lizard-men of the wild swamps and jungles with no formal military, bureaucracy, or logistical support. I can see Argonians overrunning Tear and destroying House Dres, the slaver house. I can swallow that but all of Morrowind? Ha-ha! No! Especially since Morrowind was reorganized as a kingdom by Helseth with greater manpower and resources under his disposal. Think of a tribalized Vietnam conqueringing the Chinese Empire during medieval times. Yeah not likely.

True, the potential for Dagoth Ur's malignancy to spread over Tamriel is worse than one country getting nuked and conquered by lizard-men. But coming from a selfish POV, I'd rather all the other countries fall and Morrowind to remain, especially seeing how "vibrant" and "alive" Cyrodiil was in TES IV, the supposed starry heart of Tamriel, the best of all the provinces. Compared to the gem that is Morrowind in TES III.

But to answer your question Redmer, in the case of TES III, I have to say both yes and no. The hero wasn't directly the cause of Morrowind's destruction. The rock up above Vivec was held there by Vivec's power and no matter if Dagoth Ur won or the Nerevarine, either way that rock was coming down because Vivec's power was waning and ironically that rock would've made short work of the Sharmat and his Sixth House fiends which makes the whole Morrowind game and the trials of the Nerevarine pointless except with respect to liberating Morrowind from the Septim Empire which was prophecied by the nomadic Ashlanders but never came to pass.

The Sermons mentioned that Vivec would allow the rock to fall upon Vivec if people failed in their worship for him but in the game, Vivec doesn't come off as selfish or evil in that respect. If Morrowind's destruction by the MoT was predestined then why was this never brought up in conversations with NPC like Vivec and the Tribunal Temple? Because of this I have a hard time believing that Sheogorath's rock blasting the better part of Morrowind to bits was planned all along or else in-game dialogue would've hinted at this. It's either that or the developers didn't want players to realize how pointless their mission was in Morrowind.

But assuming that Morrowind's bleak destiny was written from before. Then I'd have to say that the Neveraine was most definitely not a hero, almost criminal in his negligence. And Vivec the biggest villain of them all. It's just like your sig:

"for evil to truimph required not so much that many bad men do wrong, as for one good man to fail to do what was right"
- The first scroll of Baan Dar (daggerfall)

This is exactly what happened, Vivec and the Nerevarine failed to do what was right and get rid of the MoT somehow or failing that; call a great exodus and get their people the heck out of Morrowind.

The argonians have mind-controling hist.

They aren't unorganised tribal fighters, they're the [censored] borg.

To reply to the opening post: hero is a subjective term. A hero of your side is not a hero of the enemy.


Hitler didn't come off as evil to his followers either (though we should not get in to a discussion about that).

@Olivares afther going back and replaying morrowind i get the distinct impression that the neverine actually did seperate morrowind from the outlanders and return them to the old ways. He devistated the tribunal temple religion. Caused the oblivion crisis. and finally the red year destroyed the rest of what remained of the dunmer temple and houses. I'd say that the dunmer are almost back to their old ways now. So the neverine actually did complete what the ashlanders thought he would do. just probably not the way they thought he would. so he has finally completed all of what the neverine was suppose to do even if he didn't originally set out to do it.