A thought occurred to me the other day while playing Oblivion pertaining to the hierarchy or lack thereof among Guild Masters in the various provinces.

Is the leader of the Fighters Guild in Cyrodill just over Cyrodill or is he/she THE Grandmaster of ALL Fighters Guilds world wide? (This also applies to any and all joinable factions, including the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild, which are less...legal and public but no less organized.)

One reason I ask is that in Morrowind it seems to be implied that the then Cyrodill Archmage, Ocato of Firsthold, had some authority at asking Trebonius to step down. Of course he was also the Imperial Battlemage at the time and it might be his authority at that station he was speaking from, not his position as Archmage. I'm wondering if each province's Guild has its own head honcho who answers to nobody or if Gentleman Jim Stacey, for instance, has any connection to or obeys orders from the Gray Fox, or perhaps more officially, assuming the Nerevarine left the Fighters Guild in the able hands of Percius Mercius in Ald-Ruhn, does Mercius answer to the Champion of Cyrodill? (or Modryn Oreyn after the CoC inevitably disappears to Akavir or some Outer Realm never to be seen again)

Or perhaps are the Guilds autonomous, following some guidelines but with no central leadership? I noticed a lack of contracts or orders all the way from Cyrodill when playing Morrowind. When you were promoted to head of a guild there, it was pretty much at the discretion of the acting leader or in the likely case of his demise, the second in command to name you leader. No waiting three months for a letter from the Cyrodill Guildmaster. It was just right then and there, you're Grandmaster. This leads me to believe that the Provincial Guilds are by some degree autonomous and don't answer to their Cyrodill counterparts to any great degree.

And of course in the case of the Dark Brotherhood, Vvardenfell had its own http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Severa_Magia, and Mournhold also had a http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tribunal%3a%44andras_Vules. (In the case of the Night Mother, she may have been some kind of Avatar or mortal shell for the actual Night Mother. Or maybe it's a coincidence she's an Imperial Female and everything - I doubt there are any true coincidences.)

As per the mage guild, I do not know of any in Morrowind during Galerion's time. And he is the one who created the institution. So I was under the impression, though, the Arcane University could be considered the capital of the entire mage-guild world.

I don't know about the thieves, fighter, or dark brotherhood. However, per DB, it's safe to assume, since there many different "houses" for the brothers and sisters, the leadership seems to suggest they've different hands for each province, maybe. But, then again, the Night Mother does give you (to give to the assassins) that take the to other provinces. So, hm.. idk. Maybe there is 1 listener in total, I guess. Too confusing this early in the morning. I'll come back later to finish.

The Fighters Guild is chartered by the Empire, but it usually seems to more or less run itself. The Mages Guild also is tied in with the Empire, as the Arcane University is guarded by Legion battlemages, despite the Guild having it's own battlemages.

This gets a bit more complicated with the Thieves Guild, which seems to run amok much as they please wherever they go. In Cyrodiil there's an ancient Gray Fox organization, but then there was the ambitious Thieves Guild of Jim Stacey in Morrowind that set itself up in Vvardenfell and came into conflict with the Commona Tong (this incarnation having had much looser morals than the Cyrodiil branch). And then there were those two guys in the shop in Daggerfall who apparently were the heads of the SUPER SECRET Guild branch in the Iliac Bay. It's all very complicated; we don't know whether they're all part of the same organization, tangentially related, or what.

It's odd that they should all choose the name "Thieves Guild" or "Guild of Thieves" though, isn't it? That would suggest at the very least a common root, if no actual communication among the guildmasters/members of various provinces.

Jim Stacey seemed almost to care more about the Bal Molagmer quests than the Thieves Guild ones. As if the Vvardenfell branch based its ideals off this defunct organization. However he still uses the name of the Thieves Guild, so perhaps he sought to revive the Bal Molagmer under the guise and structure of the Imperial sect?

I don't think it is unreasonable that they would all call themselves the Thieves Guild. It's an easy way to let someone know what your organization is. Perhaps because of their criminal nature, every Thieves Guild operates on it's own, like loosely affiliated chapters to an organization with now clear leadership(which they really don't need). They are essentially the organization that muscled or bullied its way to being the only one in their province(of which we see the Morrowind TG still working on), and they may recognize themselves as part of something bigger, but there really isn't a need for Empire-wide leadership.

Perhaps also, especially in the Morrowind case, they were set up by Thieves Guild members from other provinces, especially since the Cammona Tong is not cooperative at all, and really is counter to the ideas of the Thieves Guild, being more thuggish and political, more like a mafia. They are now attempting to replace the native TG with one that will be more friendly to Outlanders.

I actually rather like Chimer Warrior's above explanation, as it has been roughly my own fanon explanation for the problem, as well.

Interesting thread, although I wish there was more to talk about. Unfortunately, that's all we really know.

My interpretation for Severa is that "Night Mother" is a title, and that she's called that after the REAL Night Mother, who presides over the Brotherhood in Cyrodiil. There's a Night Mother for each branch of the DB, but only the Cyrodiil Brotherhood answers to the real, original Night Mother.

As for the TG, "Thieves' Guild" isn't exactly the most exclusive of titles. It's what it sounds like, a guild of thieves. The other guilds, I take it, have regional guild masters under the Cyrodiil guild masters. Since the Mage's and Fighter's Guilds are sponsored by the Empire, it would make sense that the capital would be home to the supreme leaders of the guilds.

Yea but what is the use of Empire-wide leadership. It's probably hard for the Fighters and Mages Guild to control their chapters in other provinces, I imagine it's next to impossible for the Thieves Guild. All they can hope for and really all they need is a little cooperation amongst each for if they get into anything beyond stealing(such as smuggling) and probably as a place to send members that need to get out of the province for a while.

It would be hard for a master in Cyrodiil to make decisions for a province he isn't in, and the Master Thief in that province is likely to make it himself. I didn't really get the impression that any of the other TG members in Cyrodiil had ambitions or actual control outside the province, and Jim Stacey seemed to be the man in Morrowind.

I might even go further, to say that the chapters in each city actually have a certain amount of autonomy from the rest of the guild, but they work more closely together because they must pool their resources to do things like getting fines reduced and making sure the local authority doesn't get onto them while they also reduce violent crime and freelance thieves. It's ad hoc, and unofficial, a loose affiliation of Thieves working together, the further away you get from them the less power you will have over them. They don't seem like the types to respect authority just because.

A valid and likely theory. But mine's not completely disprovable either. A powerful spirit like the Night Mother in Bravil very likely is able to manifest Aspects, since she's likely a Demigod or even an Aspect of Mephala herself. Either explanation is likely as the other IMO, and in the ES universe I favor the grand over the mundane simply because it's freaking cooler, man.



Very likely. The guys who start the guilds in places like Valenwood and High Rock probably base the idea/name off the Cyrodill guild, though. It presumably came first.




I'm not so sure about the officially sanctioned guilds. Didn't Traven actually have to propose his Necromancy ban before some sort of High Council of Mages? We might presume all the regional Archmages and their affiliates had a say in the ban on Necromancy if this is the case, and that perhaps Traven's power wasn't absolute. For that matter we didn't have to hear from Donton in order to be promoted to Master of the Fighters Guild in Vvardenfell. Percius was able to promote you himself seemingly without answering to a higher power, leading me to believe the Guildmaster of Cyrodill doesn't have absolute power in micromanagement.

The Legions are another entity altogether. Just how does the Knight of the Imperial Dragon position work anyway? In Morrowind you had to advance slowly through the ranks of the Legion to become one. In Oblivion you become one by default with a full set of armor when completing the MQ, without ever joining the Legions.

Where, exactly, is it stated that the Night Mother is a "powerful spirit", a "demigod" or "aspect of Mephala"? She was an ordinary woman who founded the DB, and now she's a ghost who gives instructions to the Listener. I never heard anywhere that she could be anything more than that. A ghost wouldn't have avatars, so Severa is most certainly a different woman.

Anyway, as for the Fighter's and Mage's Guilds, those were just hypothisizing on my part. Meh.

And you're never stated to be a Knight of the Imperial Dragon, or even in the Legion, if you beat Oblivion's main quest. You're knighted as the Champion of Cyrodiil, the highest rank of the Order of the Dragon (?), not the Knight of the Imperial Dragon, which is the highest rank of the Imperial Legion. All that the Imperial Dragon armour and the Knight of the Imperial Dragon rank have in common is the name - Ocato even flat-out says that the IDA is usually made for Emperors, ie not KotID.

The Knights/Templars don't seem to have to be part of the Legion, but are more like a class of War/Military Nobles, that one has to be in order to reach the upper commands of the Legion. So if true, you could be such a Knight but not be in the Legion perhaps, and/or you can be "Knighted" right into any ranks they decided, and perhaps most of them are, and they don't rise up through the ranks. Not implausible if they are already noblemen and aristocrats, that they would skip some of the lower ranks. However, the Legion appears to offer Knighthood to it's best and hardest working members.

It may be that the Elder Council has enormous influence over the Mages Guild - especially expressed via the Archmage appointed to sit among it's ranks at any time. Looking at the Numantia Intercept you get the feeling that the Elder Council would not interfere in decisions that can be taken locally unless they are seen to be key in regards to wider issues, such as the coming of the Nerevarine and the Oblivion Crisis in which we took part and others that we have read about. In which case it would be held that the 'Senior' Archmage (at one time Occato and earlier Traven) would speak with more than his own voice and that would carry overwhelming weight in any choice of a local successor.

However, there might also be times when an especially adept and well informed mage from another Province would arrive in a different Province to take up the reigns with the blessing of the Senior Archmage of the Imperial province as a political matter for example?

Re the Nerevarine I think you have to take into consideration that this was a crisis point and that the Emperor himself was directly involved. He sent the nerevarine to Vvardenfell with explicit instructions and effectively set him on the path to being a Blade. I did not note that he had consulted the Elder Council specifically regarding the Nerevarine - but I am sure that he would have made anyone who might have influenced the situation from outside Morrowind aware of exactly what he wanted from them in regards to the situation - whether or not he explained why. And I do wonder if he would have consulted with Divayth Fyr (see the Numantia Intercept again) about this long before he acted.


As regards the Fighters Guild maybe taking a look at it's history would answer your question there. They were set up to add a new dimension to attempts to restore order in times when there was great unrest - though they are mercenaries rather than actual police much of their actions are supplementary to the patrols etc of the local guards. So they still remain independant and yet they do exist with the implied assent of successive Emperors (perhaps because they do not offer their services for political manoeuvers and maintain a perceived political neutrality. So again I would imagine that they are free to appoint within their own ranks autonomously either according to local requirements and through local officials or on the advice of the more senior Guilds in Cyrodiil who are closer to the great powers of the Empire in support of strategic considerations - thus they remain cognisant of the powers of the land who can both provide them with major contracts, and also have the power to withdraw their charter etc if seriously minded to.

Looked at in this light The Fighter's Guild are seen to fill a gap in such a way that they add an element of Law and Order - read stability to the Empire and are therefore part of the Imperial structure and rightly seen to be Imperial by both the Hlaalu/Imperials and Dunmer patriots in Morrowind for example.

The structure of the Ancient Roman Republic operated on a principal that there was no one single source of power - hence 2 Consuls held the riegns of power between them and decrees might be issued by either. Thus everyone was obliged to think about what was happening and there was a lot of flexibility in the system that was seen to empower a wider circle of officials and the aristocracy than it was thought would otherwise be the case. Also both Consuls had to be sure that his decisions would work for the other Consul and so on. That added a certain disipline to the mix. In th eCase of the Roman Republic the structure was implcit - bu tin th eFighters and Mages Guilds the structure is an implied (but very real) hierarchy of influence.

I'm guessing it's as much a noble title as it is a military rank, and so it can be conferred upon a person who isn't even in the Legion. It may be a bit like the Imperial Roman rank of Legate mixed with the 'aristocratic' Knightly Orders that started coming in towards the end of the Medieval period (Knights of the Garter, Knights of the Bath, etc as opposed to monastic warrior orders like Knights Templar or Knights Hospitaller, etc).

That whole thing was a travesty. Traven calls the two great mages together to discuss teh merits of necromancy, and why it should be banned. He then decides Gra Kog was dissapointing because she was a necromancer, and tries to arrest her. Of course she was a damn necromancer, the ban wasn't enforced until now! Idiot.

Both the Mage's and Fighter's Guild were originally inherently linked to Imperial Institutions. The Fighters Guild probably would've become more provincially independent as more and more non-Akavir and non-Imperial locals were recruited. Considering the nature of Fighters Guild members, it would be hard to keep a tab on everyone. The Mage's Guild though seem to try and limit the spread / Teaching of Magic outside the Guild so independent Guilds would become problematic. The fact that they probably have access to Magical communication and Teleportation means that tabs would be easier to keep. As for the Thieves Guild, they seem pretty independent of each other. Maybe a franchise or something.

The Mage's Guild is an off shoot of the Psijic Order originally... or did I misunderstood you there?