Luaffyn stands in a corner due to an error in her script. Lore-wise, and logically, she lives in that tavern. Outside the Gray Quarter. Idesa Sadri I've highlighted because, no matter what you call it ('taken in' is a misleading alternative for 'employed') she does undeniably live outside the Gray Quarter, in the house of the Cruel-Seas, no less, proving the law's non-existence. As for Belyn, that's pushing it, but given the existence of Idesa I see no need to really push my point on that one and can let it slide.

I don't give a damn what his reasoning is. He says Dunmer are forced to live in the Gray Quarter, we see in-game that that's not true.

It is a large chunk of one lifespan. The Nords and other races have been there centuries. They also have families, and tonnes of children, compared to the Dunmer's one or two. It's massively unrealistic to think that the Dunmer could match in one lifetime with two or three children at most what the Nords and others have amassed over centuries of whole families working and the added benefit of inheritance.

You keep saying 'taken in' as though it's something other than 'allowed by law to live with.'

No-one in Windhelm mentions any law. Niranye seems to be particularly unaware of its existence, and a number of Dunmer that gripe about their brothers' talk of 'injustice' are equally confused.

Those 'few civilians' are representative of the first wave of Stormcloaks. As said elsewhere in this thread, we have to allow for the fact that Skyrim is scaled-down, so we can see from them that even before Torryg's murder Stormcloaks came from far and wide, across all the areas he currently has control of.

You need a rallying cry, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a duel with the High King, as good as that is for propaganda. The Thalmor are taking people left, right, and centre: surely one of them could have made a martyr, in the manner of the Arnesian War? Ulfric's a creative man - he'd have to be to think up the duel in the first place - and he's not afraid of taking risks, he could have conjured up any number of propaganda coups.

He was a worshipper, or admirer, of Talos, who may well have accepted the duel for the same reasons that Ulfric challenged him: a sentimental respect for the old ways. While it's true that provinces have separate laws, we know from those books featuring the King of Camlorn's arrest that monarchies in the provinces are subservient to the Emperor's legal code, and thus Imperial law would apply to them.

RL getting mixed with RP. And a lack of appreciation for irony.

"Skyrim is for the Nords!"= racism, "Skyrim belongs to Cyrodiil!"= rainbows and puppies

Ulfric does X= he's a Nazi, Brunwulf does X= his heart is in the right place

Rolff insults Suvaris= the skinheads are taking over!, Suvaris insults Argonians= Dunmer + Argonians r bff's 4evah

The decree is posted at the tower outside Windhelm, it doesn't refer to the tower. It talks about the establishment of Solstheim as a sovereign Dunmer enclave. But a copy is posted outside Windhelm. Hmmmmm.... what could it mean.....

Is this real, right now? If Ulfric can challenge Torygg to a duel using a law from ancient times, chances are the devs showed that decree for a reason, and it is still in effect.

Yep, just like I said:

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1493205-most-overrated-race/?p=23456937

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1493205-most-overrated-race/?p=23457105

Sad isn't it? Hypocrites.

Since neither Idgrod or Balgruuf are choices I gotta go with Brunwulf.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Refugees%27_Rest

This tower once served as a meeting place where those brave souls who achieved safe passage to Skyrim would find loved ones, and leave notice for others who could not be found.

Let it stand in honor of those who had the strength and spirit to accept Skyrim's Offer "untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or Mer say that the Sons and Daughters of Kyne are without mercy or honor."

We, the Jarls of Skyrim, hereby decree this site as monument to the struggle of those who fled their native home of Morrowind in the time following the Red Year.

Oh of course, it doesn't refer to the tower...

The tower is located in Eastmarch near the Morrowind border. I wonder what it could mean... I mean all the big words about 'this site' 'this tower' and 'let it stand'. It certainly couldn't be talking about the tower, that the decree is located on a pedestal right next to.

The tower is a monument, the offer is the island which last time I checked... Is indeed still under Morrowind control. It's shown by the devs as one of the many references to the novels.

It's also shown on a loading screen.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:DB-load-Untithed_to_any_thane_or_hold.jpg

LOLOLOL So? How the hell does this invalidate what is said?

I love how it's the Stormcloaks for whom threadbare accusations of 'racism,' based on 'not making his reasoning clear' and the easily-disproven word of a carriage-driver, is a massive issue, when they're the only ones not okay with letting the Thalmor carry on their merry business of wiping out anyone who's not a multiple-generation purebread Altmer from Alinor.

EDIT: Let's play nice here, folks, we can sort out who's wrong without getting the claws out.

And considering that they were given the grey quarter, it's rather obvious that it applies there as well... Why else would it be posted near windhelm and not... in Solstheim?

LOLOLOL So? How the hell does making a tower a monument about an offer that was made four years prior, mean that suddenly the Dunmer get speshul treatment in Windhelm at 4E 201.

I hate repeating myself.

Unless it's stated otherwise, the law is still in effect.

Okay, I thought this would be obvious but apparently not. The Decree creates Solstheim as an enclave where Dunmer are freely given land and expected to rule themselves, without being beholden to any Nord jarl. It's posted just up the road from Windhelm. The Gray Quarter is an enclave where Dunmer are expected to rule themselves without being beholden to any jarl. The similarities don't strike you at all? I guess it's simply more logical to believe that the Nords gave an entire section of a city over to the Dunmer because they hate them and wanted to make sure they were close by so they could oppress them.

.... You really do not understand the concept of making a tower a monument to struggle, and about those who took Skyrim's offer made four years previously?

It's located near the Morrowind border, on a tower that was used as a meeting place for refugee Dunmer. Are they going to make it a monument, but have the decree of said monument posted elsewhere. Cause that makes perfect sense...

"This tower..."

"What tower? We're in Falkreath..."

It is a decree by the High King of Skyrim. That's not just a tourist plaque, that's law. Laws must be repealed before they no longer apply, and this one hasn't been, as we can clearly see from the fact that the Dunmer still occupy Solstheim, and no-one - not even Ulfric - has said a word about it. Incidentally, as it is a decree by the High King, the only person who can repeal it is another High King. Do you have any evidence that a High King has done so? Because, without it, your argument is moot.

Pun slightly intended.

That isn't what Sybille said. She said he had no choice by Nord law. The Imperial law does apply to them, but clearly they figured that their law still counts for something. The Empire might have let it slide if it were anyone but Ulfric.

Really? The Gray Quarter is part of Morrowind? The Dunmer don't have to pay taxes to Ulfric? Oh wait they do...

Yeah, the Gray Quarter is part of Morrowind. I get your logic... I don't know how I missed that. They're expected to rule themselves, got Great House law etc.

Great argument.

Decree, law, order, rule of law, hence more than just a monument. And again, the grey quarter is the evidence.

The High King made a law about it, four years after the Dunmer were given Solstheim? Right.

We, the Jarls of Skyrim, hereby decree this site as monument to the struggle of those who fled their native home of Morrowind in the time following the Red Year.

The only person suggesting they pay taxes was an imperial woman to a business owner, asking for their taxes to be raised. Business owners being taxed is one thing. Common civilians is another, especially when stated they don't have to. And nowhere is it stated those civilians pay taxes.

Ulfric is rather hands off when it comes to the dunmer. That would explain it as well. Obviously, it shows that this same thinking with Solstheim was applied elsewhere. Or are you going to find a way to explain the free housing they got? The entire Snow Quarter district?

Actually we don't know that they pay taxes. Viola isn't exactly a legal expert. And I didn't say it was part of Morrowind- but it's obvious that the Gray Quarter has a legal status that is different than the rest of the city. You want to interpret that as negative. There's a different way to look at it, and that other way is staring you in the face, but that would complicate the narrative that Ulfric's a Nazi.

I'll reply later, Bear, the wider Imperial vs. Stormcloak debate is more entertaining and easier.

Who gave the Dunmer Solstheim?

We have one incidence of Viola Giordano saying that she will get the jarl to 'raise his taxes' (she doesn't say or even imply that he already pays taxes, unless that's the mindset you bring to it). On the other hand, we have a royal decree signed by all the principle lawmakers of the land saying that they don't.

"They were not expected to contribute and so have not."

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Scourge_of_the_Gray_Quarter

Maybe we can continue later in pm? Or when this stuff dies down.