I'm not suggesting they weren't given housing, and taken in. But how you make the leap from offer of Solsthiem to now Gray Quarter applies to that offer, is just Stormcloaks trying to justify segregation.

You said the offer applied. The offer, mentions the 'Armistice of Old' which is a treaty signed by Tiber Septim, granting Great House law. 'untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed' Therefor not part of Windhelm, but under Morrowind control.

It isn't obvious, you're making a leap to justify something going wrong in 4E 201.

I've never once called Ulfric a Nazi. So why would you bring that up?

Sure thing. It's a good debate, I'm just distracted from it by the Imperial v. Stormcloak shenanigans.

Look at the post above, it's suggested elsewhere as well. Even if they were taxed, free housing alone is enough to justify this segregation. They were given free homes... from 'racist' nords.

Ignore.

Didn't you say, the person who wrote that book is biased and has no clue about things etc. I think it was in the thread before this.

Though if we're using this as evidence now.

There is cause for optimism, though, as Jarl Ulfric is not nearly so tolerant of these substandard beings as his fathers were.

The respectable families of the city, the Cruel-Seas and Shatter-Shields, speak with an almost parental affection of the Argonians in their employ, but the dark elves have made no effort to ingratiate or assimilate themselves to the proper city-dwellers.

Lol.

There's no indication that they do. Viola Giordano says the jarl should 'raise his [Revyn's] taxes,' there's no implication in those words that he already pays them - only in the mindset of the listener. We have a royal decree saying that they're exempt, however, so her witterings - even if they do mean what Imperial sympathisers take them to mean - don't mean much.

Are they?

We covered that.

You don't understand how bias works, it seems. Your comment is referring to a personal comment about something he couldn't possibly know, I.E. Ulfric's thoughts. Mine is referring to the state of things. It is a statement that supports the monument and what it says.

Bias does not mean the person knows nothing, or everyone here in this thread would be morons.

Not to repeat myself again, but show some contradictory evidence that can't be countered or you're done here.

The High King of Skyrim. Which is what the offer mentioned in the decree of monument refers to. The decree is for the site of the tower.

Not once is it shown that the offer applies to Windhelm, when it is actually mentioned in-game to be for the island and it's mentioned in the novels for the island.

Only people saying Dunmer don't pay taxes, Dunmer rule themselves in Windhelm. Are Stormcloak supporters, grasping at a straw to find a way to defend the apparent segregation.

Taxes get mentioned? Ah, she doesn't know what she is on about.

Offer for Solsthiem is mentioned? Of course it applies to Windhelm, cause the monument is in Eastmarch!

I'm not trying to justify anything. I think it was a dumb idea. The Dunmer should have been made citizens and forced to swear fealty to the jarls like everyone else. Pay taxes, serve in the militia, and pay tribute to Cyrodiil like the Nords have to do. But Nords were feeling generous and decided to live and let live. And yes, in 4E 201 both sides now consider it a bad thing. That doesn't mean that at its heart it was a racist idea. Of course, people will call literally anything racist and the conversation basically stops after that point, so the whole discussion is ridiculously overblown.

Yes, I know. I quoted her when she posted it, 20 minutes went by (I'm at work), then I posted it. I didn't realize it was already discussed further.

You have a stronger case re: the island and untaxed status of the Gray Quarter, but, please, we've been over your supposed 'segregation.'

It is firmly established in-game - and you can see this with your own eyes - that Dunmer are allowed to live, work, and own property including businesses beyond the Gray Quarter. There is no segregation. It's a myth. One person in-game saying it is so (someone also blissfully unaware of Khajiit, who has in his own words 'never been inside the walls') cannot counteract the score of NPCs that prove it isn't.

1) She never says they pay taxes, that's your inference.

2) She does know little about the law, compared to the people that make it. A random citizen should not be taken as a greater authority on the law than the jarls and their sovereign monarch.

What? Windhelm's the capital of Eastmarch, why do you make out they're legally separate places? They're not. That's like saying 'I thought I could murder someone in Canterbury, it only said it was banned in Kent!'

He mentions the Cruel-Sea's speak affectionately about the Argonians... Nope he actually doesn't even pay them a lot cause they're not proper Nord workers.

The Dunmer all work, two also farm, one owns a stall and sells things to the population, another takes care of raising a man's son. They so don't do anything...

It is a statement that supports anti-dunmer thinking. The Monument is a tower, the offer is for something else entirely.

Not to repeat myself again, but show some actual evidence Dunmer don't pay taxes in Windhelm, when it's mentioned one does. Show some evidence that Windhelm's Gray Quarter is self governed, besides an offer that applies to something else. You have nothing, except a straw grasp trying to defend something, you can't.

It's contradicted in-game, even on a loading screen that states the offer was for Solsthiem. It's contradicted in the TES Novels, when states the offer was for Solsthiem. It's contradicted by the fact a single Windhelm guard's patrol route takes him through there.

You can even get arrested by Windhelm's guards in the Gray Quarter. You say the Gray Quarter applies to the offer.

"untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed" But when given evidence to contradict the argument, it becomes "Well it's not exactly like the offer said... but the offer still applies!"

Want to know the 'easiest' way to move out of a poor district into a wealthy one? Renovate the poor district and turn it into a better one:
Repair and restore damaged and decaying buildings.

Care for and decorate the lawns.

Start a neighborhood watch to cut down on crime.

Start small businesses that provide services.

There are some areas that can't be renovated (Most are essentially permanent "work camps" - close to major sources of high-employment, low-wage jobs, and designed to be as cheap and cost-efficient as possible so people can save up, move out, and make room for the next guy), but the Snow Quarter is not one of those. Also - the first step in Brunwulf Free-Winter's plan is stockpiling resources needed to rebuild and expand as necessary.

As for Ulfric and the top Stormcloak generals - well, everyone's racist, but they're probably rather mild as far as cases go. However, their policies benefit established powers and Nordic Clans first. He's also seemed to have made some edicts that do discriminate against races in broad swaths (Keeping Dunmer in the Grey Quarter, and Argonians outside the city. Nothing personal). It's not unlikely that Ulfric also goes for policies that are "Meritocratic with a "Grandfather clause" - a way to establish racial segregation without specifically targeting a race because people of non-native races come from Outsider families, while scoring points among natives by honoring and respecting the accomplishments of one's ancestors.

First, let me just repost what I already have instead of writing again:

That's really all I need. You can't explain the free housing, you just ignore it. Even if the dunmer are citizens and answer to Ulfric, which isn't stated, this much is making all your comments invalid.

Dude. Try to actually read posts instead of leaping to your next reply. NO ONE IS SAYING THE DECREE IS ABOUT THE GRAY QUARTER. It's about Solstheim. I'm saying that the formation of the Gray Quarter was probably under similar legal terms as the Decree, since everyone seems to recognize that it has a special legal status, for good or ill.

It can be likened to the millet quarters of the Ottoman Empire. Yes, they were "ghettoes," and could become oppressive, but the idea was to give protected legal status to minorities so that they could keep their religion and culture.

I don't know why I even argue this anymore. People are so invested in the idea of the Stormcloaks as racists that they literally can't see it any other way.

I thought the guards didn't patrol in the Gray Quarter. Someone says it, after all.

Ok I'm done.

That's not a matter of racism, that's a question of policy. It's also far too much to expect of a jarl (again, this isn't the modern age with its sprawling welfare state) who arguably isn't responsible, legally, for the Gray Quarter's plight.

If that decree ever existed, it's long-since fallen into abeyance, as there are numerous examples that flout it in-game. The only explicit reference to any decree comes from a carriage-driver who admits to not going inside the walls, and also doesn't know what Khajiit are.

This is true. People assume the Jarl involves themselves in the everyday lives of his people, but they don't. Like when they blamed the Argonians poor wages on Ulfric. Ulfric isn't running that business, and I doubt he'd involve himself in it whether for good or ill.

This happens all the time in the Imperial v. Stormcloak debate. People ask 'why doesn't Ulfric arrest Rolff for his racist views?' Because he isn't contractually-obliged to give a toss. Nor is 'racism' anywhere near as much of an issue in Skyrim as it is in our world, where we don't have to worry about things like dragon attacks and food scarcity.

People on tumblr are especially likely to say that, which is silly since you can't even be arrested for racism here.

Actually, the modern age (1800s+) is the most individualistic, grassroots one since the Agricultural Revolution, at least when it comes to property rights. But that aside, my point wasn't that the condition of the Grey Quarter is Ulfric's responsibility (However, as the property is ultimately owned, zoned and governed by the Jarl under the autocratic feudal system, it IS his responsibility as well. There have been limitations and grants for handling the development of Urban property since the Egyptian Empire, and "It's your land, you need to fix it" is a rather modern ideal applied to cities, and largely used to screw residents over by forcing them to pay for things the government mandates), but that with access to more resources and opportunity, the Dark Elves could renovate their district and restore it to quality similar to or surpassing the old Snow Quarter, in counterpoint to people saying that in order for the Dark Elves to improve their living conditions they need to evict the established Nords.

A few things that Jarl Brunwulf could do to improve relations between Argonians and Nords:

1. Equal Opportunity employment for government jobs, such as the City Guard.

2. Proper training and hiring of the Guards to ensure that law enforcement is evenly applied - No ignoring crimes committed by Nords against the minority races, and not subjecting Argonians/Dunmer to more extensive investigations than they'd give Nords.

3. Improving the Grey Quarter's infrastructure and public facilities, and enabling renovation of more blighted areas.

Rolff isn't committing any crime by being racist, but his behavior veers into criminal (Menacing, Fighting Words, and Criminal Conspiracy come to mind).

It's "owned" by Ulfric, as in the city is his, but the grey quarter was given to the dark elves long before he was born, and so it really isn't his responsibility to do anything to it. Neither is it any other Jarl's responsibility. The people in general tend to handle their own on financial matters. There's Nord beggars without homes after all. And the EEC is one example, along with the other businesses around Skyrim and Tamriel, really. Jarls mostly just take care of protection, not much else.

She says the Jarl should 'double' his taxes or 'triple' them. You can't double nothing and get something. I'm sure she would have some understanding of taxes, after all taxes aren't really a secret Government conspiracy. Basically everyone pays them, exception of Beggars. Unless it's stated they don't pay taxes. Since it actually isn't mentioned they don't pay taxes, why is it hard to accept something as trivial as paying a tax?

It isn't like saying you murder someone. Windhelm is the capital of Eastmarch, but Skyrim's offer wasn't for Eastmarch. Decreeing a tower a monument is a stretch to decreeing free from taxes, and self worship. If that was the case, and the Gray Quarter wasn't under the Empire's control. Then technically Nords could walk into the district and pray to Talos openly without breaching the White-Gold Concordat.

Free housing 196 years ago, is one thing. Not paying taxes 196 years later...? It's not stated they're citizens? Therefor the comments are invalid? I'm not ignoring they were taken in and shown kindness nearly 200 years ago. But you're under the impression they are self governed and don't pay a Septim towards the Jarl.

It's not stated Argonians are citizens either, or that Viola is a citizen, doesn't even state Galmar is a citizen of Windhelm. It doesn't have to state every little thing, it's a logical reasoning. The only reason you feel they're not citizens, or they don't pay taxes is it helps your argument.

The decree is about making a tower into a monument. The formation of the Gray Quarter, where they took in refugees. Yeah I'm not doubting they were given hospitality, but where does it show it has special legal status? Who is everyone that recognizes? You? Other Stormcloaks? No NPC in-game makes mention to it. The Dunmer address the problems to the Jarl, like any citizen of the Hold would.

There is that key word 'Probably', so it's speculation. You're speculating the Gray Quarter is special, it pays no taxes, they're not really citizens etc. I will accept the current argument presented, if it wasn't speculation based on the fact one NPC may or may not understand the law.

They say few guard patrols. Not that no one patrols the Gray Quarter.

If you read the text of the Decree of Monument closely, it actually says it's not a place given 'untithed and free of worship' but the Dunmer themselves. If this is, as someone said on here earlier, a feudal economy, then they'd have been freemen - legally able to own businesses, employ people, and make money. However they could only make their own money: if they failed to do so, it was on their head, and no jarl would assist them. They could choose to become serfs, in which case they'd have to pay taxes and could rely on the jarl's protection, as his responsibility.

In light of the Decree, I suggest that a two-tier system exists among the Dunmer: they all entered Morrowind as freemen, and some remain that way in the Gray Quarter, their properties theirs and untaxable but beyond the concerns of the jarl in the Palace of the Kings. Others entered into the jarl's protection, and pay taxes (you seem to be right in that some do, but then the Decree still exists) and obey his laws in return for assistance and defence of their persons and property.

EDIT: This isn't what school had in mind when they said history would come in handy...

Brunwulf, I wish we had more information on him but based on what I have seen in the game he is a decent and honorable man. Leagues above Ulfric, not that it takes much. To me Ulfric is power hungry and elitist as well as being a short sighted fool and coward. Brunwulf is a good man and overall I think he would make the best High King of the two.

I support the Empire, no matter what the first time I saw the opening of Skyrim gave me 75% of the motivation I needed to side with them. And since that first time and having learned more about both sides I can safely say that the Stormcloaks have legitimate issues and I sympathize to a point. Ultimately though I have to support the Empire because the Stormcloaks just have never convinced me that they have what it takes to rebuild Skyrim let alone face the AD.

Fun threads Maiq

Traditionally, the strongest Jarl is High King. Well, I say to Oblivion with tradition. Ulfric just wants to return Skyrim to what it once was, Brunwulf wants to rebuild Skyrim. Just shows who is the better man. Ulfric is a warlord, plain and simple. Brunwulf, he cares for his people. Currently, the Stormcloak/Empire poll is tied, and Brunwulf is in the lead. What this shows is that about as many people support the Empire, as they do the Stormcloaks, but two of those think Ulfric is less suited for the title of High King than Brunwulf. I am a staunched supporter of the Empire and the pro-Imperial Jarls. Balgruuf, Elisif, Kraldar, Idgrod and Brunwulf. Maven, Siddgeir and Igmund, they're okay I guess, but they are a hell of a lot better than the Stormcloak ones: Laila is the only decent on of the buch, and barely. Kokir, Thongvor and Ulfric are two just plain horrible and arrogant, and Vignar, despite being a former Companion, is an old fool like Skald the Elder.

If will always pick Elisif as High Queen, but if I can't pick her, Brunwulf is the best choice really. Skyrim doesn't need warriors, it has plenty of those to spare, it needs merchants and architects, make Skyrim prosperous, and not just for the Nords. Skyrim does belong to the Nords, but that doesn't mean they have to be jerks about it. You only play Stormcloak if you 1. hate the Empire, which is understandable, 2. actually believe what Ulfric says, or you are just in nfatuated with the oaf or 3. you're evil and you want to see humanity burn. The Empire is the choice for the greater good, not of selfishness. It makes sense and it is more noble. The Stormcloaks, that is the rebellious and easy way out. I despise Ulfric, but I think he brings up some legitimate points, but really, his rebellion just made things worse, for the Imperials, for the Nords, just not the Thalmor. My strategy, wait for the Empire to crumble, then just take over, simple as that. But no, Ulfric wants the crown now.

I really wish there was an option to decapitate Ulfric and put his head on a spike. Or at least, an epilogue DLC, where we would get a canon ending for both sides. I still think the Imperial side will be the one Bethesda is going to go for, try not to mention, but will anyway. They have done this in the past, looking at you Neloth. If this was pre-cut content Skyrim, sure, Season Unending, it could go either way, but Elisif staying alive in both endings, Ulfric being outnumbered two to one by the Empire and three to one by the Dominion, with Skyrim not even being secure, yeah sure.

Anyway, Brunwulf will rebuild Windhelm and basically fix everything Ulfric and his kin ruined. Ulfric on the other hand, what does he plan to do? March south to Cyrodiil, burry his head in the snow? Stay on his pretty little stone throne untill he dies of old age? Or is he going to wait for a ture hero to shout his ass of the throne and take over Cyrodiil. Honestly, Ulfric is pathetic, a poor excuse of a Nord that one. Being a Nord isn't being all tough an many, hating elves and generally everyone that isn't a Nord, it means having honor, respecting your ancestors and traditions, having the Empire's back and in recent years, showing compassion to the Dunmer. Solstheim was given to the Dunmer, Brunwulf is a friend of the Dunmer. I like Dunmer, I like Nords, I want to see a Nord Empire or something, but I don't want Ulfric anywhere near it.

Essentially, the whole Stormcloak/Impeial debate can be explained with Tullius and Rikke's famous last words:

Ulfric: "Secure the door."
Galmar: "Already done."
Rikke: "Ulfric. Stop."
Ulfric: "Stop what? Taking Skyrim back from those who'd leave her to rot?"
Rikke: "You're wrong. Ulfric. We need the Empire. Without it Skyrim will assuredly fall to the Dominion."
Galmar: "You were there with us. You saw it. The day the Empire signed that damn treaty was the day the Empire died."
Ulfric: "The Empire is weak, obsolete. Look at how far we've come and with so little. When we're done rooting out Imperial influence here at home, then we will take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion."
Rikke: "You're a damn fool."
Galmar: "Stand aside woman. We've come for the General."
Rikke: "He has given up. But I have not."
Ulfric: "Rikke. Go. You're free to leave."
Rikke: "I'm also free to stay and fight for what I believe in."
Ulfric: "You're also free to die for it."
Rikke: "This is what you wanted? Shield brothers and sisters killing each other? Families torn apart? This is the Skyrim you want?!"
Galmar: "Damnit woman, stand aside."
Rikke: "That's not the Skyrim I want to live in."
Ulfric: "Rikke. You don't have to do this."
Rikke: "You've left me no choice... Talos preserve us."

Ulfric: "This is it for you. Any last words before I send you to Oblivion?"
Tullius: "You realize this is exactly what they wanted."
Galmar: "What who wanted?"
Tullius: "The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion."
Ulfric: "It's a little more than a rebellion, don't you think?"
Galmar: "Heh."
Tullius: "We aren't the bad guys you know."
Ulfric: "Maybe not, but you certainly aren't the good guys."
Tullius: "Perhaps you're right. But then what does that make you?"
Ulfric: "You just said it yourself."
Galmar: "It makes us right."
Tullius: "And if I surrender?"
Ulfric: "The Empire I remember never surrendered."
Galmar: "That Empire is dead. And so are you."
Tullius: "So be it."
Galmar: "Just kill him and let's be done with it already."
Ulfric: "Come, Galmar. Where's your sense of the dramatic moment?"
Galmar: "By the gods! If it's a good ending to some damn story you're after - perhaps the Dragonborn should be the one to do it."
Ulfric: "Good point."

Now, I understand that this is supposed to be some big rebellion ending, but I don't see the good guy in this, or the Nord, just the villain. In my book, Ulfric is the villain. If this was Game of Thrones, a lot of people say he's like Ned Stark, but only in image. Really, Ned Stark would have hated Ulfric. He's more like Roose Bolton, only less smart and less likeable. Yes, Roose Bolton seems more likeable than Ulfric. This all sounds like the worst ending in any other game, congratulations Dragonborn! Now the Empire is doomed and thousands will die! Well done! And really, who is the bigger hero? The person who dies fighting for what they beliebe in or the one that kills for what they believe it? "The Empire I knew never suredered" - that is basically Ulfric's character. The Empire he knew is dead, the Skyrim he knew is dead and he is just clutching what remains of it. He is trapped in the past. Rikke and Tullius, they take the Empire as what it is, not what it once was or what they want it to be. The Empire is flawed, but "liberating" Skyrim really solves nothing, in fact, it makes things worse, even for Skyrim.The guy may be charismatic, but then again, the other racist dude that wanted to bring back the past was also charismatic.