"That's not what my scouts report, sir. Every day more join his cause. Riften, Dawnstar, and Winterhold support him."

The only connection between the duel and that quote is that one happened after the order, it's quite tenuous. I'll post a more thought-out response in an hour or so, when my bass teacher leaves.

Skyrim needs a king like http://i2.minus.com/i3PlNGXoMIPCe.jpg

Still, in order to even have a conversation with Ulfric, Scouts-Many-Marshes would have to be real assertive and persuasive to prevent the guards from kindly escorting him back to the docks.

Brunwulf isn't Ulfric and vice versa. This being his reason for keeping it doesn't automatically establish that was Ulfric's reason to do it.

And I'm sure you know how Scouts-Many-Marshes feels about the situation.

"You have no idea. Did you know it was his decree that forbade the Argonians from living inside the city walls? I hope in his next life, he's reborn as an Argonian forced to live in a slum because of some bigoted Nord dictator. I'm joking, of course, but I'm a lot happier seeing the Empire running things in Windhelm."

If their well being had been Ulfric's real concern, there would have been a disclaimer emphasizing that when the Argonians were informed of this decree so they wouldn't feel unwelcome.

There's really no mention at all to the Argonians by the Stormcloak elite, and like, only one small reference to the Dunmer. That's something that bothers me about Skyrim...Even if you're a respected thane and a warleader for the Stormcloaks, you can't just approach Ulfric and ask "Hey, what's the deal with the Argonians/Dunmer? What's the purpose behind that?" it's really unfortunate.

Rolff Stonefist for High King

I think Bethesda intentionally went one sided on that topic, so you only hear negatives. Without it being defended by the Stormcloaks. Think it was them trying to do things in a gray approach.

Kind of like a toss between religious persecution and racial discrimination. Where it affects people differently, based on what they believe is the greater sacrifice.

It doesn't disprove it, either. In fact, it doesn't say anything either way, so using it as evidence that Ulfric is racist is one hundred per cent conjecture, no more rooted in fact than saying he forbade them because he didn't like their smell, or the colour green.

The evidence he cites for Ulfric being racist is the decree, and the decree alone. Brunwulf also upholds the decree. So, there's a flaw using Scouts-Many-Marshes to illustrate a point here.

Now we're straying really into modern-day PC here, and expecting far too much of Ulfric in the process.

He's a jarl. His responsibility is solely to keep the peace and his own throne. It is not part of his job description to make sure people are welcome, or that he's not misunderstood. It's not his business to make sure his people have the 'right' attitudes, and it's not his business to allay the concerns of every individual who feels hard done-by.

Besides, it is unrealistic to expect someone to show all their working when its comes to decisions, like maths homework, because it's reasonable for them to assume no-one will read into their actions more than they have grounds to do so, something 'Ulfric is racist' arguments rely upon.

That makes Ulfric blunt and lacking in political finesse, not racist.

The meritocratic mind believes that everyone has to prove themselves and you don't just get a cookie for showing up. That's as true in Skyrim of Nords as other races. Hence why as a Nord trying to join the Stormcloaks, you aren't just welcomed with open arms. If you can't see the difference between that and racism, try harder.

The poll's showing some Stormcloaks voting for Brunwulf. Now that makes no sense, considering the guy's an Imperial...

This. I always found it odd people thought Ulfric racist because all the Dunmer are in the Gray Quarter. Some of them don't even erroneously claim they're forced to live there, they just think he's racist because they do. They're refugees. It's all they can afford. Unless you think he should move financially stable residents of the city, Nord and non-Nord alike, out of their homes en masse to appease them, calling him racist for letting them live in the poor areas is just daft.

As for all those problems they claim - lack of guard patrols, a high crime rate, etc. - are because the area's poor, not because they're Dunmer. It makes perfect sense. The poorest people go to the poorest areas, and those poor areas are worse than the richer ones. Which part of that spells 'racism'? Bear in mind they're allowed to own homes, own businesses, live, and work beyond the Gray Quarter: what exactly is being denied to them?

In-game, even most of their own are gainfully-employed in Nord districts of the city and wish their brothers would just shut up.

They're are not allowed to live anywhere else, unless they leave Windhelm, can't move outside the Gray Quarter even if they could afford it. They were refugees around 196 years ago. There is little evidence to suggest they're still refugees, they all work and one is known to pay taxes.

"It's not the friendliest place for outsiders. The Dark Elves were all forced to live in a slum called the Grey Quarter. The Argonians can't even live inside the walls." - Alfarinn

Even the area they live in is racist 'Gray Quarter' it was once the Snow Quarter until it was renamed.

Windhelm was scaled down largely, so it isn't exactly about forcing others out of their homes to please the Dunmer. Not only that, by law they can't live outside the Gray Quarter. They could be rich, and still have no option to do it.

It's one thing to have a poor area, it's another to forbid a single race from ever living elsewhere in the city.

How is the name "Gray Quarter" racist? When even the Dunmer call it that? Apparently the name New Gnisis didn't catch on.

Bah, this discussion is silly and so overblown. People wanting to bring their SJW mindset to Tamriel and dishonest about or incapable of seeing how these issues actually relate in in-world terms. Meanwhile argue for imposing Cyrodiilic culture on the entire continent and call it enlightenment. Hypocrites.

As Gallowglass already said, Brunwulf offers the dialogue and throws doubt in that "Ulfric hates Argonians" thing simply by presenting a scenario where they could be segregated without a racist reason.

Yip. People are such pansies and wet tissue paper nowadays.

You can put two and two together. This isn't hard to figure out, really. It's really common sense that people wouldn't be so willing to go against the king themselves, regardless of the reasons. Because that's treason both in Skyrim and the Empire. Kill the king legally by Skyrim rule, it's only treason to the Empire, but not by Skyrim's law. So, it again makes it a cause.

Luaffyn? Idesa Sadri? Belyn owns a farm outside the city's walls, so it's downright logical to think he's allowed to live in it too. That carriage-driver is lying, we can see that with our own eyes.

196 years is just over a single Dunmer generation, precious little time to establish themselves to the same extent as families that have been toiling the Windhelm soil for hundreds of years. Because of that long lifespan, Dunmer also don't start families as often or in as great numbers as human races, so they don't have the same earning power - it takes them much longer to save up as much cash. They have moved up since their arrival, of course, we can see that, but with the way their society and physiology works it's silly to expect them to have taken the top spots in what to them is a very short time.

You could scale it up, it would still be about that. The only way they're moving out of the poorer area is by moving into richer ones, and that means displacement. Unless they're going to build an entirely new district of the city, which absolutely no-one - least of all the Dunmer themselves - can afford or accommodate.

Except we have examples to show that such a law does not exist.

I think you understate the level of support he had from the other holds. We know that Riften was allowing soldiers to go to him, as the Snow-Shod daughter joined 'at the start of the rebellion,' and that Solaf - a merchant in Falkreath - was wounded 'years ago.' All of this was well before Torryg was dead.

This debate centres around whether the military support would have came without the duel, and based on the existence of people well beyond Eastmarch's borders having fought for him 'years' before the duel it seems likely that it would. Those jarls, sending people to go off and fight, were already committed.

'Skyrim law' is theoretical. It's what Ulfric wants to bring in. In Skyrim at the time of the rebellion, the Empire's law was the only law, making going against the king treason, legally, no matter which side of the fence you're on.

Because they mention it. "You've seen how we live -- cramped alleys, run-down buildings, few guard patrols. Even the name 'Gray Quarter' is an insult."

It's apparently the official name of the area, what else are they going to call it?

White people used to call black people something they considered insulting. You know what they did? Called themselves something else.

Seems to me like the "grey quarter" simply caught on, whether it was started by dunmer or Nords, and they're simply using it to pile on to their "oppression".

I don't know... I think if the Stormcloaks were able to defend their actions it would make things more gray and realistic. For instance, the Imperials are given a lot of chances to explain their controversies, like the whole accepting the WGC, in-game the Imperials try to explain that they simply did not have the resources to keep going, and that they accepted the WGC and have an appeasemant attitude in order to build up strength.

That explanation doesn't make me agree with them, but I see why others would. However, with the lack of explanation on the Stormcloak's controversies, it just sorta taints them darker, because we just hear what the Argonians and Dunmer think of it and why it was done, without the Stormcloak leadership trying to defend their actions, so we just assume "OMG ULFRIC IZ SO RACIST"...And I think that's what contributes greatly to his unfair vilification.

I find this whole "poor dunmer" attitude funny as hell, considering the Dunmer are some of the most racist [censored]s in Tamriel, owned slaves, then wrote this beauty of literature:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Dunmer_of_Skyrim

The hell do people even care so much, racism is practically everywhere in TES, which isn't surprising given the abundance of different actual races of people here. Jesus, when did racism become a greater injustice than killing innocents and religious prosecution?

Luaffyn stands in a corner. Idesa Sadri was taken in by a Nord family to raise their son. You just explained Belyn yourself, his farm is located outside the city's walls... Therefor logically not inside Windhelm if he chose to live there. Yeah, because even the carriage-driver is secretly an Imperial lover and has reason to lie.

Actually according to lore now, Mer only live around 300 unless they are extended by magic. So nearly two hundred years... well I'd call that a large chunk of their lifespan.

They don't have the choice, even if they could afford it. That is the point, unless they live outside the city walls or are taken in by another Nord family.

Not according to those who live there. I'm sure they would have a better understanding of their own situation.

I feel a bit odd explaining this, but people's opinions aren't always factual. Sometimes they're just opinions. Occasionally they're even axes for grinding.

And after all this time, people in the forum still can't think of any reason why Dunmer living http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Decree_of_Monument could be something other than racism? No? Why am I surprised.

Lol, three posts posted at the same time? C-c-c-combo breaker.

Woah, forum overload. I posted a reply on the other page, Bear, don't know if you saw it.

According to those who live there, the Empire is a thalmor puppet, and they're members of the dominion now. I'm sure they would have a better understanding of their own situation. Since, you know, they're technically in the Empire still.

Just because one group does something, it doesn't justify another.

The decree of monument... for a tower? Nothing in that decree, mentions, or even hints towards how a tower being made into a Monument in 4E 20 means jack in 4E 201. Wasn't even looked after, it's fallen into shambles and taken over by a troll.

That's not true, clearly, or Torygg would never have accepted the duel. The provinces all have their own law separate from Cyrodiilic law, as Morrowind showed in the past.