M'aiq welcomes you to the Finale of the High King/Queen of Skyrim.

After the finale, M'aiq will be creating another thread showing the results of the Finale.

M'aiq wishes all the remaining candidates good luck!

1. M'aiq chooses Brunwulf Free-Winter, because Brunwulf is the only person who is capable of becoming the High King of Skyrim, accepts all races into Skyrim (Ulfric tolerates non-Nords, but doesn't really help them), and very friendly, trustworthy, and a "true" Nord.
2. M'aiq supports the Empire all the way.

And now this turns into a popularity contest.

The winner of the Finale will become the unofficial High King of Skyrim.

I care little about your boxes, Idgrod Ravencrone for High Queen.

Talos guide this thread.

Garrus Vakarian.

Another thread.. ?

http://media.247sports.com/Uploads/Assets/122/187/1187122.gif

Hurrah for more political debate. Have fun, I'm going over to Dark Souls II.

The bold part is debatable.

This, I can get behind.

I myself haven't seen any in-game evidence that supports the view that he helps the other races. Even Torygg was supposedly anti-Argonians as evidenced by some dialogue in Solitude.

That's actually completely wrong, what Ahtar says is that if Torygg was still alive he would ban Jaree-Ra from the city, Jaree-Ra being a known criminal. The "Torygg would've banned argonians" is hugely overblown and wrong.

That's the part up to interpretation. Some say it's because he's a criminal (Jaree, Gulum, and Deeja are siblings), or it could be Torygg is actually prejudiced against Argonians. Though it doesn't help that all the Argonians in Solitude are criminals.

I support the criminal theory.

Considering anyone can join (regardless if you think it's for convenient sake or not, it's fact), and the altmer aren't segregated and are doing quite well, same for the dunmer farm owner, I'd say it isn't debatable. At worst, Ulfric indeed tolerates the other races. Too many people are quick to stamp intolerable racist on him.

Put it this way. Ulfric doesn't have to be a racist for you to disagree with him segregating Argonians and continuing the status quo of segregating the dunmer. Even if there are other reasons for it besides racism, which I believe there are, it doesn't mean that this decision is a good one, or one that you have to like.

Personally, I'm of the mind that it's better to be safe than sorry. Others think it's never excusable, which is fine. But it doesn't mean racism.

Eh, to me it sounds like a bunch of people pulling at straws to evade a point, because that's pretty much all I've seen people use it as, an evasion tactic whenever people bring up the idea of Ulfric hating argonians.


It's possible to hate one race and still be considered racist. We see no tension between the argonians and the Dunmer, Brunwulf tells us it's Ulfric's followers that are the problem and we have a decent amount of examples (Rolff, the inn-keeper, and the owner of the shipping company all three being stormcloak-aligned (don't take this as "herpderp all stormcloaks are racist" because that's not what I'm getting at)) to back that up.

Honestly, I'm not bashing Ulfric for being racist, in fact it would make his character a bit more interesting and would give him another downside of his character.

It's indeed as you said, up for interpretation. For me, the only reason I ever bring it up is to show the Imperial supporters what it's like to have racist accusations thrown at them with sub par support. I don't really think Torygg was racist, however.

edit: Lol, like Cider said. Though it's not for "evasion", it's to show what the shoe is like on the other foot. Taste of their own medicine.

In Skyrim, no-one knows anything about Black Marsh. Gods, culture.. Nothing. So is it really a huge stretch to say that Torygg may have been more than a bit prejudiced towards Argonians. Not to mention the Khajiit, who I'm sure are a bit less enigmatic to Nords.

A stretch, no, but there's no reason to believe it. Not enough evidence.

It kinda is an evasion tactic though as people bring it up when it's not needed to be brought up and it really doesn't prove a thing.

An evasion tactic is bringing up a completely unrelated point to ignore another. I don't want you to ignore it, I want you to see exactly what it's like. Because that's how we Stormcloak supporters feel 24/7.

I'm not getting into an argument, we both know where this will go I'm just going to leave it as "Ulfric being tolerant" is debatable due to we have examples that can be used to disprove this, it's all vague.

Ulfric probably is a bit racist, like everyone. Anyway, if Ulfric isn't racist against the altmer of all people, there's really no reason for him to dislike dunmer or argonians. And you already know that the argonians and dunmer "not having tension" is debatable as well. Brunwulf blames the Nords, but that's a biased source.

I don't much feel like going in circles, so I'm fine with leaving it as "debatable". Sides have already been chosen.

Again, you don't have to hate every race to be racist.

You just have to get that last word, huh? There's no reason for him to hate the other races, yet every reason for him to hate the altmer. (Yes I know all altmer, or even most aren't Thalmor). It just doesn't make sense for him to be this raging racist to dunmer and argonians, but Altmer are A okay in his book. Where's the motivation? Distrust?

Wouldn't he distrust the guys that look like the people that tortured him? I.E. Altmer? Even if he indeed was racist to dunmer and argonians, you have to admit that this much does not add up. Is it possible? Yes. Does it make sense? No.