hircines moon

Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:15 am

Yes. But show that the laws of physics don't apply outside of Nirn, don't they? Now you might think that is silly. But you should consider what you're judging it from. Contemporary knowledge? Yes, but you have to let go of the disbelief. It's fantasy setting.

A good policy is to only assume a real-world law of physics or even logic applies in fantasy is if it is shown to be so. One good example is orbits. Yes, they do happen, but aren't a fact of life. The moons orbit Nirn, but Nirn is an unmoving body because so does the sun, which isn't a ball of gas undergoing fusion but is in fact a hole in dimentional space.
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Carys
 
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Post » Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:21 pm

Yes. But show that the laws of physics don't apply outside of Nirn, don't they? Now you might think that is silly. But you should consider what you're judging it from. Contemporary knowledge? Yes, but you have to let go of the disbelief. It's fantasy setting.

Aside from a few bodies in the mortal plane, I don't see anything that contradicts physics. Some things alter physics instead, though.
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Your Mum
 
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Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:37 am

Aside from a few bodies in the mortal plane, I don't see anything that contradicts physics. Some things alter physics instead, though.


C'mon, don't weasel your way out. You can't have missed the existence of souls, magic, demons and angels, huge towers, myth-making tools in a semi-concious reality, poetronachs, and steam-powered robots.
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Betsy Humpledink
 
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Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:21 am

C'mon, don't weasel your way out. You can't have missed the existence of souls, magic, demons and angels, huge towers, myth-making tools in a semi-concious reality, poetronachs, and steam-powered robots.

Some things are explainable by myth, others are explainable by magic. It doesn't mean that there isn't a similar system of physics in TES, which from what I've seen, there very much is.

Edit: And it certainly doesn't mean that the Temple-Zero Society's word is indisputable, or even correct.
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CORY
 
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Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:04 am

Edit: And it certainly doesn't mean that the Temple-Zero Society's word is indisputable, or even correct.

I've been trying to tell people that for at least a year, so try to be satisfied that at least two people know it.
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Jesus Sanchez
 
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Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:53 am

I've been trying to tell people that for at least a year, so try to be satisfied that at least two people know it.


make that 3 they are just maily fan fics right? or well really researched fan fics right?
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Daniel Brown
 
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Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:58 am

I've been trying to tell people that for at least a year, so try to be satisfied that at least two people know it.

Am I one of the cool kids?
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Vicki Gunn
 
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Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:28 am

Some things are explainable by myth, others are explainable by magic. It doesn't mean that there isn't a similar system of physics in TES, which from what I've seen, there very much is.

Edit: And it certainly doesn't mean that the Temple-Zero Society's word is indisputable, or even correct.


Somethings are explained by myth and by magic, that includes the physics. :)

Remember Y'ffre? He became an Earth bone and gave everybody a solid shape. Azura tied the Khajiit to the phases of the Moons before to do just that. There was no resemblance to our physics until some god enforced it. The Dwemer turned off the Bones that enforce decay. It's even part of the Altmeri Monomyth, Mundus had more limitations then not. Only magic remained unconstrained as Magnus left.

This is a good indication that the things-fall-down physics you're thinking off consists of a set of divine constructs. They don't apply unless enforced. Outside of Nirn the planets move in orbits not dictated by gravity. Outside of Nirn, the http://www.imperial-library.info/bsbooks/anchor_warning.shtml is located in a place were it must gather magic, magic that keeps all sides of nature in unity.

So for the time being, Temple-Zero is the best and only explanation we have for the nature of the heavens.
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james reed
 
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Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:51 am

Somethings are explained by myth and by magic, that includes the physics. :)

Remember Y'ffre? He became an Earth bone and gave everybody a solid shape. Azura tied the Khajiit to the phases of the Moons before to do just that. There was no resemblance to our physics until some god enforced it. The Dwemer turned off the Bones that enforce decay. It's even part of the Altmeri Monomyth, Mundus had more limitations then not. Only magic remained unconstrained as Magnus left.

This is a good indication that the things-fall-down physics you're thinking off consists of a set of divine constructs. They don't apply unless enforced. Outside of Nirn the planets move in orbits not dictated by gravity. Outside of Nirn, the http://www.imperial-library.info/bsbooks/anchor_warning.shtml is located in a place were it must gather magic, magic that keeps all sides of nature in unity.

So for the time being, Temple-Zero is the best and only explanation we have for the nature of the heavens.

I prefer not to look at it as that, I prefer to think of there being an overlaying physics system that governs all of Oblivion, including Nirn, which can be changed by myth and magic. Hence why the Princes can shape their realms to their whim, and why myth does it the same for Nirn, yet they all share many of the same laws.

I like to look at the mortal plane as but one of many, the inhabitants of which have no Prince to explain the world to them, instead making things up, believing themselves to be the center of existence and justifying the belief when their myths alter things in the mortal plane. But myth can only shape so much.
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Becky Palmer
 
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Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:55 am

I did, and what I saw was a sun. In fact, I checked on the CS, and the sun is exactly the same in the Shivering Isles as it is in Tamriel.


It's been a little while and I don't currently have access, but I'm very certain that there is just a bright spot in the sky of the SI instead of some big orb hanging in the sky. Can anyone confirm/deny this for me?
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meg knight
 
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Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:31 am

While that very well may be the sun (indeed, aetherial refuse gives Daedric Princes the ability to do stuff), that by no means proves that Daedric Realms are planets and orbit said sun.

Oblivion is the blackness of space. NOT a planet. /discussion.
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Vicki Gunn
 
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Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:03 am

While that very well may be the sun (indeed, aetherial refuse gives Daedric Princes the ability to do stuff), that by no means proves that Daedric Realms are planets and orbit said sun.

Oblivion is the blackness of space. NOT a planet. /discussion.


But all of the concrete Spheres within Oblivion are anologous to Planets, correct? It's only those empty spaces between Concepts which are anologous to outer space.
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Brittany Abner
 
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Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:28 am

But all of the concrete Spheres within Oblivion are anologous to Planets, correct? It's only those empty spaces between Concepts which are anologous to outer space.

And then the holes in the sky, which are the stars and the sun
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Guinevere Wood
 
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Post » Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:54 pm

I say that because I recall CP saying something along the lines of Oblivion planes being actual planets, that is, spheres that orbit Magnus.

I understand how the realms can be anologous to planets in the sense that they're dimensional planes, but this, by no means, means that they're planets. I haven't seen any sufficient evidence that supports such an idea.

edit: Just now really read that CS sun comment. Isn't this the same CS created by the devs that removed the jungle from Cyrodiil?

C'mon now.... Don't go quoting a CS as written-in-stone lore...
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Michelle Smith
 
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Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:05 am

I say that because I recall CP saying something along the lines of Oblivion planes being actual planets, that is, spheres that orbit Magnus.

I've been looking at the possibility that they orbit other rips in Aetherius; that is, other stars.

I understand how the realms can be anologous to planets in the sense that they're dimensional planes, but this, by no means, means that they're planets. I haven't seen any sufficient evidence that supports such an idea.

The idea is a bit far out, but it also goes with the idea of god-planets of the Aedra in the mortal realm.

edit: Just now really read that CS sun comment. Isn't this the same CS created by the devs that removed the jungle from Cyrodiil?

C'mon now.... Don't go quoting a CS as written-in-stone lore...

I just used it to double-check my in-game observations that the suns in SE and Tamriel looked the same.
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Kat Lehmann
 
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Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:31 am

I've been looking at the possibility that they orbit other rips in Aetherius; that is, other stars.

Interesting. I'll only entertain it further when I see something that suggests that the realms can even orbit something.

The idea is a bit far out, but it also goes with the idea of god-planets of the Aedra in the mortal realm.

Except that we can actually see them in space. We can see Oblivion, but not each individual realm, a major reason why I think the way I do about the subject.
I just used it to double-check my in-game observations that the suns in SE and Tamriel looked the same.

My point still stands.
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Helen Quill
 
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Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:42 am

The CS tends to abstract a few things for a quick reference point. I'm talking In-game with my sun thing.

More on topic, what about Nocturnal? We haven't seen her realm and by all accounts she claims domain over the void itself. That would weaken the Daedric planes are planets theory.
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Kari Depp
 
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Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:30 am

I prefer not to look at it as that, I prefer to think of there being an overlaying physics system that governs all of Oblivion, including Nirn, which can be changed by myth and magic. Hence why the Princes can shape their realms to their whim, and why myth does it the same for Nirn, yet they all share many of the same laws.


That doesn't make sense. Sure, you can think of an overlaying system I can agree with you on that. Though in this system, regular physics are still an exception. As exemplified above, they only occurs in place where there are forces that want it to be. Of course you can hold that myth and magic break the rules everywhere, except in those places were they're consciously held back. If you're consistent about it that works as well.

But that only brings us back to the original argument. Infinite plane(t)s, in impossible orbits and holes to Aetherius being observed as planets and stars due to Mortal Mental stress aren't impossible as outside of Nirn nothing enforces normality.

As such there is no reason to peg the cosmology as implausible.

I like to look at the mortal plane as but one of many, the inhabitants of which have no Prince to explain the world to them, instead making things up, believing themselves to be the center of existence and justifying the belief when their myths alter things in the mortal plane. But myth can only shape so much.


To the contrary, myth appears to be shaping everything. But that's another discussion.

As already shown, the Empire has a fairly advanced knowledge of what things are like outside Mundus. The only mythology referenced by the Cosmology is common knowledge and can be considered accurate as the gods involved exist.

As such there is no reason to peg the cosmology as the result of ignorance.

What's missing from this discussion is any sort of research material and an ability to check for ourselves. But we're not talking about a real world, we're talking about a fantasy universe. This means that you need to give the author(s) a certain amount of trust and when there is no obvious contradiction, assume that what he tells you is indeed true.
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Charity Hughes
 
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Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:17 am

Interesting. I'll only entertain it further when I see something that suggests that the realms can even orbit something.

Well, Mannimarco orbits Arkay, eclipsing him once a week.

Except that we can actually see them in space. We can see Oblivion, but not each individual realm, a major reason why I think the way I do about the subject.

Extrasolar planets cannot be seen from space, even with powerful telescopes.

The CS tends to abstract a few things for a quick reference point. I'm talking In-game with my sun thing.

In-game, there's no difference.

More on topic, what about Nocturnal? We haven't seen her realm and by all accounts she claims domain over the void itself. That would weaken the Daedric planes are planets theory.

So she doesn't claim domain over an actual body but the void itself, she can do that I suppose.

That doesn't make sense. Sure, you can think of an overlaying system I can agree with you on that. Though in this system, regular physics are still an exception. As exemplified above, they only occurs in place where there are forces that want it to be. Of course you can hold that myth and magic break the rules everywhere, except in those places were they're consciously held back. If you're consistent about it that works as well.

But we have no proof that physics only occur when the forces want it to be. And they're strangely identical, in the planes of Mehrunes Dagon, Jyggalag, Peryite, Boethiah, Lorkhan, and possibly Mankar Camoran.

But that only brings us back to the original argument. Infinite plane(t)s, in impossible orbits and holes to Aetherius being observed as planets and stars due to Mortal Mental stress aren't impossible as outside of Nirn nothing enforces normality.

As such there is no reason to peg the cosmology as implausible.

And there is no reason to peg an alternate observation-based theory as implausible.


To the contrary, myth appears to be shaping everything. But that's another discussion.

We're obviously on different pages. I see myth as only shaping the mortal plane because it is where the Convention took place, and where the Divines gave themselves up. I do, however, sometimes wonder if Jyggalag did some sort of Lorkhan-type creation.

As already shown, the Empire has a fairly advanced knowledge of what things are like outside Mundus. The only mythology referenced by the Cosmology is common knowledge and can be considered accurate as the gods involved exist.

As such there is no reason to peg the cosmology as the result of ignorance.

Their knowledge, however, is not a work of astronomy, but of magic, opening portals to bridge seemingly endless gaps between our plane and others. Of astronomical knowledge itself, they have shown to have little.

What's missing from this discussion is any sort of research material and an ability to check for ourselves. But we're not talking about a real world, we're talking about a fantasy universe. This means that you need to give the author(s) a certain amount of trust and when there is no obvious contradiction, assume that what he tells you is indeed true.

My ideas are gathered from studying texts on Oblivion as well as observing the planes of Oblivion themselves (including Mundus), looking at their skies and the laws of physics that they go by. I tend to take the words of those from Oblivion, as they tend to have a clearer view of the bigger picture, even if they may possess some mental abnormalities.
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kristy dunn
 
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Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:54 am

But we have no proof that physics only occur when the forces want it to be. And they're strangely identical, in the planes of Mehrunes Dagon, Jyggalag, Peryite, Boethiah, Lorkhan, and possibly Mankar Camoran.


We have plenty of proof.

I've already pointed out that before Y'ffre and Azura there was no stability. I've already pointed out the Battlespires need to be in kept anchored in a flux that keeps all sides of nature in unity. This should be sufficient already as I only have to show one example, where outside of Mundus, physics need to be enforced.

You can mention Daedric realms where some physics can be observed but there are also Daedric realms such as Quagmire and Ashpit where they clearly are not observed. In addition all realms suit their Prince which gives the impression they decide what happens. It says as much in the intercept, all realms are built from Creatia, magic:

The Daedric Realms were formed on much the same principle: padomaic powers using aetherial refuse to build their void-territories. The Towers built on the Mundus, since the lands around them congealed in the absence of the gods, were unable to match the capriciousness of the Lords of Misrule.


It's magic that creates the physics.

And there is no reason to peg an alternate observation-based theory as implausible.


If your observation-based theory would observe the facts mentioned above it wouldn't be implausible. :P

We're obviously on different pages. I see myth as only shaping the mortal plane because it is where the Convention took place, and where the Divines gave themselves up.


All the Aedra and Daedra are the embodiments of concepts, they're the very themes of myth! Or would you like to pretend that the Gods and Demons aren't in the realm of myth?

My ideas are gathered from studying texts on Oblivion as well as observing the planes of Oblivion themselves (including Mundus), looking at their skies and the laws of physics that they go by. I tend to take the words of those from Oblivion, as they tend to have a clearer view of the bigger picture, even if they may possess some mental abnormalities.


You should start citing those texts and observations. I still don't know what exactly you mean by physics.
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Justin
 
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Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:08 am

We have plenty of proof.

I've already pointed out that before Y'ffre and Azura there was no stability. I've already pointed out the Battlespires need to be in kept anchored in a flux that keeps all sides of nature in unity. This should be sufficient already as I only have to show one example, where outside of Mundus, physics need to be enforced.

You can mention Daedric realms where some physics can be observed but there are also Daedric realms such as Quagmire and Ashpit where they clearly are not observed. In addition all realms suit their Prince which gives the impression they decide what happens. It says as much in the intercept, all realms are built from Creatia, magic:

The Daedric Realms were formed on much the same principle: padomaic powers using aetherial refuse to build their void-territories. The Towers built on the Mundus, since the lands around them congealed in the absence of the gods, were unable to match the capriciousness of the Lords of Misrule.

All originating from Aldmeri creation myths. And, to quote Haskill (Dyus seems to concur on it)


Ah, the elves. That most self-centered of mortal races. It is inconceivable that anything could occur that has nothing at all to do with them. Do you really think that Oblivion exists solely as a shadow of Mundus? That everything that happens here is connected in some way with your pitifully limited world? I can tell you, speaking only for myself, of course, that sometimes entire minutes pass without me thinking of mortal affairs.


http://www.imperial-library.info/interviews/si_interview.shtml


It's magic that creates the physics.

More like alters the physics.

If your observation-based theory would observe the facts mentioned above it wouldn't be implausible. :P

More like egocentric Altmer delusion than facts (Even if their delusion does affect that which is in the mortal plane)


All the Aedra and Daedra are the embodiments of concepts, they're the very themes of myth! Or would you like to pretend that the Gods and Demons aren't in the realm of myth?

The Aedra are shaped by mortal myth. The Daedra, on the other hand, shape mortal myth themselves. They are outside what Haskill calls "Lorhkan's choice".

You should start citing those texts and observations. I still don't know what exactly you mean by physics.

In all games we've played, every Plane of Oblivion visited goes by the same basic physical and chemical laws, give or take. Such as gravity, actions and reactions, velocity, acceleration, fluid flow, heat transfer, et cetera. Sheogorath even executes people by utilizing gravity.
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Harry Hearing
 
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Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:35 am

*cough*gamemechanics*cough*
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Mrs Pooh
 
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Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:00 am

Well if the common denominator is all the realms visited in all games we've played, then we're talking about gameplay not lore. The realms we haven't visited such as Quagmire and Ashpit but are described in http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/doors_oblivion.shtml don't seem to adhere to normal physics.

If you're going to to discredit the Altmeri creation myths, you must discredit the entire Monomyth. This is an extraordinary claim for which you need extraordinary evidence. You need more then a quote from a sarcastic Chamberlain. Mankar attempted this with knowledge from Mehrunes Dagon and claims a conspiracy but those are not falsifiable. If he could not, how could you?
But even then, the self-centred elves built towers that work. Showing that the principle is sound. The same principle is exemplified by the Battlespire. Know that this is one of the five great Anchors that moor the Battlespire in its place and retain it in the life-flood of sustaining Mana, without which there is no light, no life, no Being. (...) Above all, never allow them all to be unloosed. Sure destruction shall follow, as the Battlespire departs the flux that keeps all sides of nature in unity. - http://www.imperial-library.info/bsbooks/anchor_warning.shtml. No matter how you turn it, magic creates physics.

Ofcourse unless you assume that myth and magic break the rules everywhere, except in those places were they're consciously held back. If you're consistent about it that works as well. But that only brings us back to the original argument. Infinite plane(t)s, in impossible orbits and holes to Aetherius being observed as planets and stars due to Mortal Mental stress aren't impossible as outside of Nirn nothing enforces normality.

With no source contradicting this point of view, of infinite plane(t)s and star holes, we can only assume the Cosmology is accurate.
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Jack Walker
 
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Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:08 am

Well if the common denominator is all the realms visited in all games we've played, then we're talking about gameplay not lore. The realms we haven't visited such as Quagmire and Ashpit but are described in http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/doors_oblivion.shtml don't seem to adhere to normal physics.

I've wondered for some time if Ashpit is a nebula, held together and shaped by Malacath. It was even described as nebulous. As for Quagmire, it still isn't beyond a Daedra Prince to alter things in their realm to their whim. Or affect the minds of those who set foot in it.

If you're going to to discredit the Altmeri creation myths, you must discredit the entire Monomyth. This is an extraordinary claim for which you need extraordinary evidence. You need more then a quote from a sarcastic Chamberlain. Mankar attempted this with knowledge from Mehrunes Dagon and claims a conspiracy but those are not falsifiable. If he could not, how could you?
But even then, the self-centred elves built towers that work. Showing that the principle is sound. The same principle is exemplified by the Battlespire. Know that this is one of the five great Anchors that moor the Battlespire in its place and retain it in the life-flood of sustaining Mana, without which there is no light, no life, no Being. (...) Above all, never allow them all to be unloosed. Sure destruction shall follow, as the Battlespire departs the flux that keeps all sides of nature in unity. - http://www.imperial-library.info/bsbooks/anchor_warning.shtml. No matter how you turn it, magic creates physics.

So they figured out how the mortal plane worked and learned to replicate it. It doesn't mean that they know how things outside the mortal plane work. And it would indeed take altering physics in battlespire, to give it an atmosphere and Nirn-like gravity.

Ofcourse unless you assume that myth and magic break the rules everywhere, except in those places were they're consciously held back. If you're consistent about it that works as well. But that only brings us back to the original argument. Infinite plane(t)s, in impossible orbits and holes to Aetherius being observed as planets and stars due to Mortal Mental stress aren't impossible as outside of Nirn nothing enforces normality.

With no source contradicting this point of view, we can only assume the Cosmology is accurate.

Cosmology is not contradicted because its claims are inherently done so they cannot be proven wrong by mortals, at least not with what is at their disposal.
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Chris Jones
 
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Post » Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:49 am

So they figured out how the mortal plane worked and learned to replicate it. It doesn't mean that they know how things outside the mortal plane work. And it would indeed take altering physics in battlespire, to give it an atmosphere and Nirn-like gravity.


They got nature to work outside the mortal plane. That implies they both know how nature works and things works outside the mortal plane.

Cosmology is not contradicted because its claims are inherently done so they cannot be proven wrong by mortals, at least not with what is at their disposal.


Sure they can be. As it stands, we can't though. That's were a bit of trust and some suspension of disbelieve comes in. We're still dealing with a fictional universe.
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Suzie Dalziel
 
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