what could the moon over hircines plane be? if the two moon over nirn are the fleshy body of lorkhan.

Well, if you look at the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Orrery in Oblivion, the other planets, which are the planes of the Aedra, have moons too. So I guess there are other ways for moons to form besides from the rotting corpse of a god.

(Warning, speculation ahead!)

One of his eyes, maybe? If the planes of Oblivion are basically their princes, it stands to reason that they can see everywhere and everything on their plane at any given moment. So, let's just assume that the planes of Oblivion follow some basic real-world rules, and are, in fact, round. If that's the case, I propose that the sun and moon of these planes are their respective prince's eyes, and each eye watches over either the day or night half of the world.

If not in a real sense, maybe just symbolically. I dunno.

Sheogorath didn't have a sun

And they aren't round. At least the sun and moons on Nirn are. You just think it is because you're trying to grasp something you aren't meant to grasp. MMS (Mortal Mental Stress).

Given Hircine's alignment to hunting, primal actions, and lycanthropy, requiring a moon is quite necessary for his hounds to act in, among other things. So in other words, Hircine has a moon because he needs/wants it.

"that's no moon..."

I always thought that moons were Lesser Daedra's realms. Although this IS PURE SPECULATION on my part (In caps because even when I say that people ask me for a link,) It follows with how one infinity can be greater than another (1()() < 2 ()().) And there ARE lesser Aedra IMO, for example the Gills and Y'ffre (he's a tree)

But how can we know if those who said it were correct if they themselves were mortal? Perhaps the mortal mental stress is what makes people try to explain that which they do not understand.

Edit: And what do you mean Sheogorath doesn't have a sun? What was that big glowing thing in the sky in his realm? Surely it would not be a stretch for Sheogorath's realm to be orbiting a star?

Why would the god of the hunt want a little floating arm circling around him? It seems to me like that would give you away to an intelligent foe.

I dare you to look into the big bright thing in the Shivering Isle's sky and tell me that that is a sun. I suggest going to the Mania side for a clear view.

Well... okay. I'll give you that, even though it's a case of (kinda) a primary source tells us so and therefore must be true.

The ES world lives and breathes symbols. The night is when the more fearsome monsters go out and hunt and so to take such a symbol and appropriate it for hunting and then to base your own monsters that hunt man off of the moon tends to align yourself towards moon iconography.

Besides, it doesn't have to be a literal moon like ol' Luna sitting above us. It can be one of his own creation that moves however he wants it and works however he wills it. In other words, the moon can be symbolic and not actually real.

I did, and what I saw was a sun. In fact, I checked on the CS, and the sun is exactly the same in the Shivering Isles as it is in Tamriel.


How is it a primary source? Sure MK gave it to us, but it's supposed to be from the Temple Zero Society, and therefore a mortal, Tamrielocentric viewpoint.

There's a Necromancer's Moon, so perhaps there are circumstances under which a plane (Aedric, Daedric or otherwise) can bud off (like a dividing cell or the way that people used to believe the moon was formed from the fast spinning Ur-Earth)? It happened to the Lore-Kahn, it happened to the King of Worms, so why couldn't it have happened to Hircine?

Sanguine's 100.000 pleasure pockets might have taken the process into the extreme.

It's a fundamental and authoritative source. Also considering the existence of the Battlespire, Mananauts and Orrery with planets in impossible orbits, it's not something that would be misunderstood in Tamriel. They're not the flat earth society.

It is, because it's cool that way, and Tamrielocentric is, oh I don't know, a fifteen letter word for redundacy. It's primary or secondary has nothing to do with authenticity, many primary records are bull, and many secondary sources are authoritative. With that, I'd say Cosmology is secondary.

One Orrery was built by a race with actual observatories. The other was supposedly built by those who had been able to gather celestial matter. Neither of these groups' astronomical feats have been repeated since. The other thing is that mortals tend to believe the universe revolves around them (and not just in TES), which Haskill seems to disagree with.

Haskill's baseless disagreement doesn't make an arguement against Cosmology. Where's his anolysis? "Oh, those elves are arogant mortals." Please. Mundus is imposipoint, Gray Maybe, hub of the Wheel, whether Haskill likes this or not. All I've seen is evidence for Daedra mimicry of mortal concepts.

Also, he's in the realm of the Madgod. while I do believe elves are arrogant bastards and don't have the slightest idea what they're actually talking about (after all, as was stated earlier mortals don't have the mental capacity to grasp the entirety of creation) Haskill is not any more a reliable source for information than Dyus, Sheogorath or Vivec. The first three because they are either in the land that is madness personified or are themselves madness personified and Vivec because he is a pathological liar and is likely himself insane.

Which is an extremely easy argument to make: "oh, they're in the realm of a madness god, so they're lying," and "oh, everyone else says he's lying" or "I misunderstand what he's saying, so he's lying" (not really saying you do the last one, but people frequently used that argument, in my opinion). At least you aren't saying that Sheog had something to do with Vehk's insanity... <_<

And I though the term "impossipoint" referred to the Convention, which technically DID happen, but because it STARTED Time and didn't happen inside of it, it's an "impossipoint."

I've just been taught to give very careful consideration to the reliability of sources. It's not that everything the first three say or wrong, or everything Vivec says is a lie, I just feel the need to take anything they say with a fair sized shaker of salt because, as sources, they have all been deliberately established as unreliable. Think, would a storyteller of any skill establish a character as insane or a pathological liar and then realistically expect you to just believe everything the character said at face value? I have too much respect for TES's writers to believe that.

EDIT PS: I have to happy facepalm at that last thing, too, because a major theme of a story I've been writing is "just because you don't understand it doesn't make it wrong." Kind of a funny coincidence, eh?

Every Tower has a stone. The "impossipoint" of the Convention was the first, but it is called the Zero Stone*.
What gives Mundus it's multitudinous impossibility. Point being, the magic answer is right.


Haskill's wrong, because he dosn't have a better idea.


*which is Nirn, correct?

You can be honest and demented at the same time. And it's not like he's lied in the past. In fact, I believe the Daedra and their servants have a much more reliable perspective of the universe than the inhabitants of the myth-shaped mortal plane.

...why can't it be the Convention itself, which is what I've always understood it to be?

Basically, Adamantia is its own Stone.

I'm not saying Haskill, Dyus or Sheogorath are presented as liars, they are however in the realm of the madgod and therefore mad. That doesn't mean that they are immediately wrong, of course, but it does bring their credibility into question.

The universe, unlike that of TES doesn't have any immortals but the people who believe otherwise tend to think it does. Which for a universe like that of TES makes it perfectly acceptable to revolve around mortals.
Seriously, planets for gods, stars as holes to heaven, constellations as divines and a geocentric model, it's all Greek and Roman mythology. With gods being real, might as well go with the rest of the circus. Keeping that in mind, tamrielocentrism is probably isn't even wrong in so far it's used to describe Tamriel as the axis mundi.

What the Mananauts, Battlespire and impossible orbits in the Orery show is that the laws of physics don't apply outside of Nirn, at all. With that and the above in mind, mortal mental stress fits just fine for an explanation. You haven't actually offered an explanation that suits the observations better, and you've got your whole argument riding on a sarcastic Haskill.

Let's also not forget Mankar Camoran's speech, as flawed as it was. Nirn is just another plane of Oblivion, one where something big happened that set it apart from the other planes. To the Daedra Princes, it's unclaimed territory with unique and intriguing fauna.


Mananauts and Battlespire were reliant on portals. They have nothing to do with the Orreries, which were made by those who observed and touched the stars long ago. Their "teachings" sound more like their own made-up explanation than a real answer, they certainly sounds silly enough. The myths may alter and give meaning to the bodies in the mortal plane, but the mortal plane is only a small portion in a cosmos.

The problem with Mankar is that as a conspiracy theorist he isn't falsifiable. Anything contrary to the conspiracy theory will be part and proof of the conspiracy.



Yes. But show that the laws of physics don't apply outside of Nirn, don't they? Now you might think that is silly. But you should consider what you're judging it from. Contemporary knowledge? Yes, but you have to let go of the disbelief. It's fantasy setting.