Hist Time : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:47 pm

I've got a thinker for you guys:

Humans conceive of time through the concept of a circle apportioned into 360 degrees and subdivided into 60 parts, anchored against the speed of the rotation of the planet. This is how we perceive it and then you can translate that into how it works in TES (Magnus revolves around Nirn), but the concept of using a circle to spin 'round and 'round remains, even if you're viewing it as a wheel progressing forward/backward or a spiral, circling and circling the same point, but changing it's 3-dimensional position. You can point your finger at whatever it is, the point is that we are obsessed with an ideal, a circle, as our base for measuring the progress of time.

So, how would sentient Trees, whose obsession would be more towards growing measure time? At first glance, you might say "Tree-Rings", but they aren't going to cut themselves apart just to count the rings they grew. You could argue a foliation/defoliation cycle, but Black Marsh is supposed to be a swamp and every swamp I know (In RL) has deciduous trees keep their leaves all year.

» Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:47 pm

Do trees have to cut themselves open to know how many rings they have, or would they just know?

:turtle:

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:02 am

Maybe they measure time by the cycle of night and day, or through argonian minds? Or maybe they count the branches, at least for juding their own age.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:36 pm

It's been awhile since I've read The Infernal City, but I seem to remember that it, at least briefly, mentioned how the Hist -- and by extension, Argonians -- perceive time. I don't remember exactly, though, so I could be making it up.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:57 am

It's been awhile since I've read The Infernal City, but I seem to remember that it, at least briefly, mentioned how the Hist -- and by extension, Argonians -- perceive time. I don't remember exactly, though, so I could be making it up.

I remember that too, it was something about how one of the biggest challenges for an Argonian trying to understand men and mer is how they perceive time as constantly going forward. Or something like that. It's definitely in the book, somewhere...

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:58 am

It's towards the front. It's a thought that Mere-Glim is having as he touches the city tree.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:22 am

If I remember the book right, it says that Argonians don't really have a concept of time, something about how it tends to throw off Argonians, at first, that other races have past- present- and future-tense words for events in their languages. I'd assume that the Hist are similar in that regard.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:35 am

I've got my copy in front of me and i'm reading the part where Mere-Glim is withbthe Hist tree (pg.33-36) and I can't see any mention of the Hist's perception of time. Though there is a mention of the An-Xileel laying magick's o'er the ruins of an older Lilmoth, "as if they wanted to go back, not forward. As if something were pulling them back to that ancient Lilmoth" (pg.35)

Miranders probably right, i'm gonna skim the book real-fast.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:17 pm

I was probably wrong. I've read it three times but it's been a few months since the most recent reading.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:37 pm

The Hist and Argonians have no perception of linear time.

From my http://imperial-library.info/content/infernal-city-lore-notes, page 90:

“The concept Imperials called 'time' did not have a word in [Glim's] native language. In fact, the hardest part of learning the language of the Imperials was that they made their verbs different to indicate when something had happened, as if the most important thing in the world was to establish a linear sequence of events, as if doing so somehow explained things better than holistic apprehension.” p.90

“To [Glim's] people – at least the most traditional ones – birth and deth were the same moment. All of life – all of history – was one moment, and only by ignoring most of its content could one create the illusion of linear progression. The agreement to see things in this limited way was what other peoples called 'time'.”

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:30 pm

The Hist and Argonians have no perception of linear time.

From my http://imperial-library.info/content/infernal-city-lore-notes, page 90:

Thank you Lady N. I had a feeling there was something about Hist and Argonians and time somewhere in the Infernal City

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:30 pm

Trees grow outward in rings, rather than upward from roots, until they fall apart under their own weight. Sort of sounds like Alduin's view of things.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:40 am

I think the secret to the concept of Hist time can be found in the biology of the Hist themselves.

Think about it. Trees have rings. But these rings aren't just circular, they also extend up and down- from the roots all the way to the canopy. And these roots/branches divide into ever-smaller branches, each with rings inside them. AND, at the root level, the Hist are all connected, so these rings lead to completely different rings in other trees, which divide on and on forever in the same way.

I think the concept of tree rings is right on the money, but simply counting the rings is an extremely simplified (and human) way to measure time, as to the Hist, time would be far too complex to even think about measuring. Which is why these don't have a concept of linear time.

Which interestingly, is a trait they appear to share with the Dragons- the Dragon language has no distinction between past/present/future tense.

It's no wonder we've never seen any info on the Argonian Akatosh. The whole concept is far too complex for our feeble mammalian brains to grasp.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:30 pm

Soon after their departure of the Planar Shell, the Root people lick the Sap, in mockery of the Cracking. For all intents, a failure. Or does the lick anticipate the Striking and new-birth? Where does the count begin? It's the earth-walkers' way, to begin with the egg, but where does the egg dream he began? The High and Mighty of the Root know, the Hist is our horizon, the sky is a sea of eggs.

Now, the Hist is made sentient, by the nest's massive, gelatinous http://aknhp.uaa.alaska.edu/herps/grfx/life_cycle_nw_salamander.jpg. It lies underwater and tendril-wrapped, in a likeness of the Cross.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:32 am

Soon after their departure of the Planar Shell, the Root people lick the Sap, in mockery of the Cracking. For all intents, a failure. Or does the lick anticipate ? Where does the count begin? It's the earth-walkers' way, to begin with the egg, but where does the egg dream he began? The High and Mighty of the Root know, the Hist is our horizon, the sky is a sea of eggs.

How many licks does it take to get to the tootsie-roll center of a Tootsie-Hist Tree?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ0epRjfGLw

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:41 am

Ask Mr. three-eyed toad.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:29 am

It's no wonder we've never seen any info on the Argonian Akatosh. The whole concept is far too complex for our feeble mammalian brains to grasp.

That and maybe they don't religion the same way. They worship the Hist and the Hist do... something for/to the world.

Soon after their departure of the Planar Shell, the Root people lick the Sap, in mockery of the Cracking. For all intents, a failure. Or does the lick anticipate the Striking and new-birth? Where does the count begin? It's the earth-walkers' way, to begin with the egg, but where does the egg dream he began? The High and Mighty of the Root know, the Hist is our horizon, the sky is a sea of eggs.

Too Tsaesci-ey

I think the concept of tree rings is right on the money, but simply counting the rings is an extremely simplified (and human) way to measure time, as to the Hist, time would be far too complex to even think about measuring. Which is why these don't have a concept of linear time.

If they base their time-reckoning around the rate at which they grow, then they'd perceive something that distorts ring-creation as a major event, whether it be drought (not likely in a swamp), lightning strike, snapping off of a branch, axe-chop, etc. We might be close with their growth influencing it, we just have to be careful because trees wouldn't have any concept of symmetry (and thus pattern and thus crystal and thus symbolic reasoning (small-S symbolic) and thus little use for perfection like we strive for in the ideal of a circle).

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:25 am

Too Tsaesci-ey

Their physiology is similar enough. Further, I'm taking inspiration from V'vek's Book of Hours, the Dreamsleeve, and the diagram. I disagree.

But yes, the Hist are gods. Fell with the et'Ada.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:24 pm

The thing is that tropical trees does not have to have any tree rings and thats the reason why Hist have no concept of time.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:38 am

The Hist and Argonians have no perception of linear time.

From my http://imperial-library.info/content/infernal-city-lore-notes, page 90:

Then do argonians keep track of age?

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:22 pm

Their physiology is similar enough. Further, I'm taking inspiration from V'vek's Book of Hours, the Dreamsleeve, and the diagram. I disagree.

So, by your reasoning, Imga and Men are mythologically similar.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:10 am

There often appears to be a striking correspondence between mythic stories and aspects of reality. We will examine the processes of creative imagination within a neurobiological frame, and suggest a theory that may explain the functions of myth in relation to the hidden aspects of reality. Myth is peppered with archetypal entities and interactions that operate to reveal hidden processes in reality relative to the human condition. The imagery in myths in a sense “sustains the true.” That is, mythopoeic imagery keeps the interpretive process in experience closer to the actual nature of reality than the rational faculties operating alone are able to do. Indeed, while rationalizing can easily lead us awry, genuine myth rarely does. Explanations of events offered by traditional peoples are frequently couched in terms of mythic themes and events. An important function of myth is to provide a “field of tropes” that informs the lived experience of people. This paper will focus especially upon those aspects of myth that represent facets of the quantum universe, and which give us clues as to the relationship between consciousness, symbolism and reality.

But like I said, my inspiration came from the Book of Hours' Striking (Argonian), the Dreamsleeve, Jesus (Towers and the Cross), and that salamander diagram.

» Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:14 am

Anyways, thanks everyone for giving your input. You've given me some stuff to chew over.