ok, here goes...

I?ve been doing some reading (more like re-reading) about the underking, I just finished reading Arcturian Heresy.

I know there?s still a lot of lore on the subject i have to read, specially wulfhart?s songs and the accounts of the battle at Red Mountain, but i just need to know if i?m on the right track here, so hear me out:

1.- Hjalti = Tiber Septim
2.- Hjalti + Wulfhart/Ysmir = Talos during the conquest (Then who is Talos the ninth? I know its not just tiber, its some identity combo)
3.- Wulfhart = Former Underking
4.- Zurin Arctus = New Underking (not really sure how but it has something to do with the enantiomorph trigered by the color of betrayal, ie the ambush.... But enantiomorph with 3 ingredients???? I mean Zurin, Tiber and Ysmir, isnt 1 + 1 supposed to equal 11? then what is 1+1+1???)
5.- Underking = Someone very powerfull who is betrayed (I know that?s a MAJOR UNDERSTATEMENT), and some avatar of Lorkhan.

I remember reading in the forums something about Zurin mistaking the Mantella for his own heart, when in fact is Wulfhart?s. I get that, but then is the underking Zurin/Wulfhart or something like that?

And finally (for now), did wulfhart have something to do with the dwemer?s creation of Numidium? Did they need him (wulfhart) to do it? What does he have to do with their dissapearance?

Thanks in advance for being patient enough to enlight me

I wanna kill myself for this post.

The (cryptic, incomplete) formula:


The female principle- the casus belli of the twins, whatever it is they are fighting over. It is also what binds them together in an enantiomorph (as the term refers to the dual part of the formula). This can be an abstract concept more than a being, and often is. One.

When the formula mentions wave form, think http://micromachine.stanford.edu/~hopcroft/Research/resonator_images/sin_mov1.gif The ongoing battle of the twins, a constant role-reversal as the rebel betrays the king and is likewise betrayed. One plus One.

The Witness- the most mysterious part of the formula. Hrol's shieldthane watched the coupling with Alessia and carved it on a rock to tell the people, coming to a bad end. Sul was blinded at the battle of Red Mountain as he watched Nerevar's murder. Zurin Arctus had a hole roared in his chest when Hjalti betrayed Ysmir. Etc. Not all of these have to be situations involving an enantiomorph, but mythic events follow this pattern because they naturally mimic the formula, which is the blueprint of all creation.

Edit: 1+2+1=4

I get the general idea, but... i dont get how this fit through the numbers (This 2 makes another 1? how?)

I mean...... I get how Talos the god can be a merger of certain aspects from zurin (the sorcerer and research dude), wulfhart (the warrior, crazy berserker nord and kickass Underking) and tiber (political and very cunning mastermind, the bastard didnt even have The Voice to begin with) from their interaction during the attempt of creating the Mantella, but if that?s the case shouldn?t they have ascended right during the ambush and become Talos the deity?

I can understand how Tiber Septim is a byproduct (did i spell it right?) of the interaction between Zurin and Wulfhart; very much like everything else is a byproduct of the interaction beetween anu and padomay. But i just dont get how they all transcend into a higher being.... no, its not that, i get how the 3 of them can transcend into Talos, i just dont get the time delay (I dont know if you can understand my confusion).

Let me put it this way, why does it take so long for people to worship Talos, instead of Talos becoming their god right after the ambush?

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

I think i?ve made a lot of progress after reading paw?s and 946000?s posts.

Yes, I?ve had the general idea for sooo long, but now i can almost fully appreciate the event... how enantiomorph resonates into mortal interactions.

In the Enantiomorph, the 1, there are 2 parts of it. Thus, 2 make 1. I made the "2 + 1 = 3" part to help the stuff concerning the figures in the Firmament make sense.

I'll note that I do often forget the "Witness" part of the enantiomorph. This said, I really don't know who the Witness could be in the Talos case. That's why I kinda ignored it.

Nah. That honestly wouldn't even make sense. It just created the Mantella. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question.

Recall the Underking ending in Daggerfall. Recall that the Underking is an avatar of Shor. Recall that the Mantella is the Heart/Soul of the Underking.

Go to work.

What time delay? If the Emperor became suddenly divine, who would notice amidst his reputation of invincibility, superpowers, divine guidance and origins, and the general havoc of Numidium? Or maybe Hjalti lived out his life with his rival dead, with the new Divine waiting in the wings. As an Aedric (sort of) being, no one would notice his presence until they worshiped him.

Zurin is, or not?

There are 4 roles in Enantiomorphs. In the relevant sources it shows that only 3 people were involved in the Mantella incident. Zurin (Magus) got blasted by Wulfharth (Warrior).

I'm also gonna bring up how the 4 role thing applies to the fact that one enantiomorph is mimicked by 2 other individuals, thus adding to my confusion about the whole 4 role thing.

note: http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml#2 that may help with my Warrior/Mage/Thief idea.

OK, so i REALLY have to do my homework

Gotta bury my eyes inside TIL

The female principle is Tamriel/Empire (I think).

I get that Zurin is an avatar of Lorkhan, and so was pelinal, right?

I?ve been reading the five songs of king wulfharth and the secret song... but i?m even more confused.

I was under the idea that wulfharth was also an avatar of lorkhan, but in the songs they say that lorkhan brought Ysmir back, so what?s up with that?

And what?s that about Lorkhan leading the nord armies to the battle at red mountain? Major contradiction? Or just some nord crazy talk?

And Dagoth Ur leading nord armies? I remember something about that when i played morrowind, but i thought that was a lie and the true account of the battle at red mountain was kind of a merger between what the dissident priest say and what the ashlanders say... and what Vivec tells you, once you get past his lies

Makes sense. Didn't necessarily count that out though.


Yes, indeed.

edit: UNDERKING Zurin. Not necessarily the "human" Zurin. I hope I didn't confuse you...

Shor needed a good general. Wulfharth fit the bill. Simple as that really. I think this shares similarities with Hinduism.

Best I can give you is my subjective viewpoint. Shor wants his heart back.

Thought Ur just asked for Nordic help against the Dwemer. that's what the Secret Song says.

(Why do we think Zurin is an avatar of Lorkhan? His part in the story was written before such the other things came about, so I prefer to think of him as a human character.)

The Nords feel that Lorkhan himself fought at Red Mountain, with Ysmir/Wulfharth as his champion. general, and avatar all at once. Whether the Missing God was influencing events or is just mentioned as some stand-in for the heart, you decide. (Of course Lorkhan would bring back his own avatar.) At Red Mountain the Nords fought for Shor, simple as that.

Some say House Dagoth were traitors that allied with the enemies of Nerevar. Some say that is a lie and that Voryn was faithful until the heart drove him mad. (I can;t remember if the game ever presented one version as true.) In the Nords' histories, Dagoth invited Skyrim's invasion and yet fought for Nerevar still, until finally tapping the Nords to destroy the Dwemer.

And crap, it's been a long time since I learned all this and the different versions are confusing me. Most of the stories don't even mention the Nords and Orcs.

I didnt mean that the game tags one specific account as "the true story", i agree that we all have to decide for ourselves what to believe in.

Specially something as twisted as the events at Red Mountain.



That?s kinda what im trying to say, almost no story mentions nords and orcs present at the battle, though the nords would have an interest of their own for fighting alongside the dunmer against the dwemer (getting their god back).... and probably dunmer dont mention them because... i dont know... they?re ashamed of getting help from people they hate? (but lets face it, they hate everybody).

I can understand how Wulfharth could lead the nordic army as a general/avatar of Shor, but one of the things i find really confusing is that The Doom Drum talks about them as separate entities during the actual scene of the confrontation

Akatosh, Auriel, Alduin, Alkosh

All the gods (besides Daedra, mostly) are split up along cultural lines. As they are shadows of original beings, they are treated, act, and exist as separate beings. Beyond that, there are many sets of individuals who are really one. Catholicism has the Trinity, ES has the quadrilogy.

Actually him murdering Culecain(sp?) makes the thief aspect quite believable. Most thieves are sly and witty, such as he was in blaming Zurin. Cold-hearted betrayal I think.

I didn't even discount that. I thought the rogue, Monkey King, and Vehk references encompassed that.

Hjalti didn't run around pickpocketing people or stealing things.

So certain mortals can mimic the main constellations and their interactions... Or this constellations are a picture of the interaction of certain aspects of enantiomorph.

Then what?s the role of The Serpent?

The Serpent is the ruling king.

Recall that the 12 worlds (constellations) of Nir (cosmos of the Anuad) form Nirn, which itself was created by Shor, the Second Serpent. The Serpent is both blessed and cursed. He wins and loses. He dies and lives. He's THIS and THAT.

Damn it!!! I knew it!!!

I had the idea but wasnt sure! Specially after reading the Yokudan mith of creation

According to the Heresy he stole his power and just about everything. He even pickpocketed the Crown off Cuhlecain's head.

As was already said...

"Thief" the TES archetype... not the IRL archetype

Fans of Lost will understand when I say that I've always viewed the TES concept of the rogue to be like the character Benjamin Linus. Ben's not a thief, per say. He does, however, have wonderful powers of persuasion and always seems to get his way. The trick is not to steal from people. The trick is to get them to give willingly what you want.

I have no problem understanding that.

Tiber and Vivec are thieves, it?s part of their charm.

And Ben?s a manipulating [censored], yet he grows on you.... He does the best he can given the circumstances, i see him as the lesser of several evils. I do like him better than Jack

It could be argued that Vivec, among all the other people who tapped into the heart, is also the lesser of several evils. Although Sotha Sil apparently loved the Dunmer more, isolating himself in a hole and having nothing to do with them is a lousy way to show it. Vivec, the rogue, seems a likable sort of person, god or not. And yes, in every way he's a rotten, cheating, dirty bastard. I can imagine him wearing a "cheat to win" t shirt, a la Eddie Guerrero, if he lived in our world. But he's still got the best personality and supposedly the purest motives of his little clique.