I agree that lisbian and gay couples should at least be mentioned once or twice. And I don't understand all those "they should focus on other stuff" arguments - it's not like that's something that should be added to all the stuff they're already doing.
How many quests, or dialogues did you have in Oblivion that had something to do with a couple? Maybe 5 or so. It would have taken zero extra effort to make one or two of these couples lisbian or gay. What you're thinking, for some reason, is "there are already five references to relationships, if they want to put gays/lisbians in they'd have to put more in and they should focus on something else instead".
I'm sorry, but that argument doesn't make any sense.

I like that guy who simply says he can't handle any more homo/bisixuality than Crassius Curio. Seems like a very honest statement. However, Crassius Curio was completely in-your-face about it. Some characters like that are nice, but in general that's not what I'm talking about when I say I want homosixuals in the game.

I agree that lisbian and gay couples should at least be mentioned once or twice. And I don't understand all those "they should focus on other stuff" arguments - it's not like that's something that should be added to all the stuff they're already doing.
How many quests, or dialogues did you have in Oblivion that had something to do with a couple? Maybe 5 or so. It would have taken zero extra effort to make one or two of these couples lisbian or gay. What you're thinking, for some reason, is "there are already five references to relationships, if they want to put gays/lisbians in they'd have to put more in and they should focus on something else instead".
I'm sorry, but that argument doesn't make any sense.

I like that guy who simply says he can't handle any more homo/bisixuality than Crassius Curio. Seems like a very honest statement. However, Crassius Curio was completely in-your-face about it. Some characters like that are nice, but in general that's not what I'm talking about when I say I want homosixuals in the game.

In ancient greece there was a special homo-hoplite-platoon called the 'Golden Band', or something, who (if I remember my historylessons correctly) defeated the allmighty Spartans in some battle. If gays are to be included in tesV maybe such bad-ass ( :tongue: ) military corps is a solution. Otherwise I don't se much point in it.

In ancient greece there was a special homo-hoplite-platoon called the 'Golden Band', or something, who (if I remember my historylessons correctly) defeated the allmighty Spartans in some battle. If gays are to be included in tesV maybe such bad-ass ( :tongue: ) military corps is a solution. Otherwise I don't se much point in it.

Either way I don't mind. If they are int he game, then cool, if they are not, then cool

But to answer your question, when it comes to codding every second counts. It sometimes can take days to make code for even the simplest of things and any time spent on other stuff is time they could be spending working on that horse code and fixing bugs.

To make a gay couple would require that they make two new character models for each couple they added. Then you have to do voices overs for them, this is Skyrim everything Bethesda adds will have a voice over I promise you. Then you have to build their house, decorate it, place them into it, give them code, add scripts triggers and what not. All of that takes time.




I also want to add that when I say that, I am assuming that they have already populated the world so they would have to go back and add them in. But you know if they wanted to make a few people they added gay, then as long as they aren't going backwards then no, you are correct it really wouldn't take much time at all.

it is unlikely that there is not a single gay, lisbian, transgendered or bisixual person in the whole of Tamriel.

Indeed, when codding every second counts, otherwise you may get more cod than you can process!

Coding, however, doesn't care whether somebody is gay or straight. Making a gay couple is no harder than making a straight couple.

:toughninja: Gets the popcorn. :popcorn: :toughninja:

I would rather they spend time putting horses into the game then making up gay npc's to please you. No offense but somethings are more important and immersive then someones relationship. I don't care if you are straight, gay or bisixual it does not add anything to my game experience, horses however do.

But it takes time, and when you have to go back to add gay couples because you are already 90% done with the game, it is time you could be spent fixing the bugs.

What is more important to you.

1. You get the game the day it launches, you actually stand for 6 hours in a line to get it at midnight, you come home turn on and bam your game crashes, turns out it is not compatible with some drivers on your computer so you won't be able to play at all till they release a patch, but hey they went back and added some gay men into the game so its cool... Right?

Or would you rather

2. Get the game, put it in, and have it be bug free, or close to bug free as possible because they spent 100% of their time and man power fixing those bugs.

I pick number 2. I guess I am just crazy :shrug:

I don't care if they add them in, but only if they have the time to.

But it takes time, and when you have to go back to add gay couples because you are already 90% done with the game, it is time you could be spent fixing the bugs.

What is more important to you.

1. You get the game the day it launches, you actually stand for 6 hours in a line to get it at midnight, you come home turn on and bam your game crashes, turns out it is not compatible with some drivers on your computer so you won't be able to play at all till they release a patch, but hey they went back and added some gay men into the game so its cool... Right?

Or would you rather

2. Get the game, put it in, and have it be bug free, or close to bug free as possible because they spent 100% of their time and man power fixing those bugs.

I pick number 2. I guess I am just crazy :shrug:

I don't care if they add them in, but only if they have the time to.

You are missing his point, he is saying that if there are straight couples in Skyrim then they could just have easily have made one of those couples gay. He is not saying they should now create a gay couple, only that if they had this in mind when first coding and creating it is no harder to implement than a straight couple.

I'm not going to bother answering that because it's clear from the very question you haven't got the slightest clue what you're talking about

It all comes down to where the game is in development. They only have 9 months until release, this tells me that the game is 90% done right now. The world has been formed, towns have been made, voices overs already have been recorded, all code has been written etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

You have to remember, games take YEARS to make, 9 months is short time when you compare it to most games that take 5-8 years to be published. If the game is really as done as I am assuming, and you have to remember here I am just assuming that is 90% done, then do add gay couples means they need to go back and write new stories for them, make houses, make character models, hire new people to do more voice overs. It takes time, and right now I think they are more worried about fixing all of the bugs in the game and making sure it works then they are about the sixuality of people.

...Wow. Why do people seem to think including gay characters will somehow make TES something it isn't?

Christ, guys, it's 2011, not 1911.

Then lets not ask that they add gay people, but hope that they did. Asking that they add gay people is asking them to take people away from other tasks to work on gay people/




Clearly you don't. Games take time to make. It took them 2 years to make dragons work properly in the game, they still aren't happy with how the horses are working and they have been working on the game for years now. Humans are the most complexed things to model and animate because we have such a complexed polygon and skeleton when it comes to coding terms.

They don't just sit down and push a few buttons and their game is made. People actually spend years working on lines of code to get it to work correctly, then they have to test the game, which I would bet you $1,000,000 that this game is already in alpha beta, then they have to listen to what every tester says, then they have to change what people disliked, they have to fix bugs people found, then they have to go back do another beta test, listen to the testers again, fix the bugs the showed up this time around, fix the bugs that they created by trying to fix bugs last time and change things to make the game more likable. It is a long and time consuming process and time is not something people can just throw away, I am sorry you don't understand that. But right now is NOT the time to go back and add them in. Wish for it all you want, either they are in or they aren't no reason to request they add them.



Now if I missed the point of the OP then that's fine, but his post came off as if he was requesting that Bethesda make the game more "real" by adding them in.

Recording the voices are among the very last things that are done. When all the quests and dialogue are truly set in stone. Only the big star dialogue is recorded early as it's used for promotional stuff, and usually only consist of a few lines anyway.

It doesn't take 5-8 years for a game to be developed. Skyrim have been in full development since the release of Fallout 3, about 3 years. And make character models? It takes less than a minute to make a new NPC in the CS. As for the other things, you're assuming there aren't gay people in the game already. We don't know that, especially not as there been such NPCs in the past games like Crassius Curio and in the ingame books.

Yes and thats why I say they are already done, because the game is almost done. Todd has already said they've been doing testing on the game to fix bugs, that's alpha beta. Alpha beta doesn't start until you are almost finished with the game. Meaning most likely, they have done voices already.




Recyling code doesn't take as long as it does to make new games. Beteshda soft is saying their engine is new, and it is, but you also have to account that most likely, just like almost every other game dev out there, that when they made it, they recycled a lot from their old code, this would make things much faster.

Look at how long it took them to make WoW 4 years, short a few months of 5, hell look at how long it took them to make Duke Nukem Forever. Actually they never did, they spent to long on it so the game got canned.

Also please do not use the construction set as a example of how short of a time it takes to make a character model. I want you to go download blender and make me a good looking character that walks, sits, waves, fights and so on, and tell me how long it takes. I bet you it will be more then a few minuets.

Maybe so, but what time periods do you think TES draws inspiration from? Pre-1911, I'd say. Open homosixuality would be repressed in a world like Tamriel. Having said that there's no reason why it could be in the game in a more subtle manner - slight hints at a character being secretly homosixual from conversations with them or other NPC's, that kind of thing. But to walk into a rustic nordic tavern to see it being run by Paulo and his boyfriend... that's when it's gone too far.

So how, prey tell, could having gay people introduce "driver incompatibilities"? The game does not talk to the drivers, it talks to DirectX (On windows and the 360) or OpenGL (on the PS3), which either interact with the hardware or talk to drivers which interact with the hardware. If the game crashes because of errors in the drivers, this is entirely the manafacturer's fault, and has nothing to do with bethesda in any way.

Why do you believe it would even take additional work? Homosixuality is not a technical issue, the AI does not know what such concepts as "male" and "female" are, it is a writing and voice acting challenge and nothing more. If they have their writers and voice actors debugging their code, then we're in for more issues than simply a lack of diversity. Why people being complex to animate (Newsflash: All decent animations are hard. That's why they're not all perfect) has anything to do with this I'm not sure, unless you think that having limp wrists is a requirement to be gay?

Not every addition to a game requires additional programming, that's the very point of seperating engine and data, and why the game doesn't come as a 7GB binary. Things aren't hardcoded, that would be ridiculous. Making video games is hard - making somebody gay does not make it harder. At all. In any way.

@Glorious; While I wasn't alive in the 19th century, I have seen documentaries, and none of them included the nine divines, magic, any talk at all about planes other than the mortal plane! To call TES "based on pre-1911" simply because they use swords is an insult to the complex and interesting lore of the series, which includes a lot more sixual themes than you'd think from just playing Oblivion.

Look at how long it took them to make WoW 4 years, short a few months of 5, hell look at how long it took them to make Duke Nukem Forever. Actually they never did, they spent to long on it so the game got canned.

Also please do not use the construction set as a example of how short of a time it takes to make a character model. I want you to go download blender and make me a good looking character that walks, sits, waves, fights and so on, and tell me how long it takes. I bet you it will be more then a few minuets.

Okay I guess I have to draw a picture here for people to understand this.

You have 5 people. If those 5 people spent all their time fixing the game, then by release date it would be flawless, or pretty close.

Now someone comes to the boss of those people and says, I want gay people.

The boss goes to his team, tells 1 of them to make two new characters for every town in the game, to script them, code them, and prepare them for the game. Have you used CS? Tell me how do you make it so a person has a life in the CS? Do you simply just throw them in and wish them the best or do you have to do some work? Yeah you have to do some work, that takes time.

So while he is doing that he tells person 2. You need to make new skins for this character. He goes and does it, this also takes time. You want a good looking character right? I know I do.

So now we have to build them a house, so he tells person number 3. Hey you go build me a house, make sure it looks real, that its not glitchy, that its functional. You have to add chest, clothes, beds, give them ownership. Blah blah blah. So he goes and does that.

But wait, we need to do voice overs for each person we are going back to add. So he tells person number 4 to go hire some people and do voices overs. for every gay couple that is added.

Now we have 1 person left fixing the bugs. You get it? To have people go back and add them in, means you are taking them off of a task they are already preforming, and I am sorry but that is not what they need to be worried about right now.

either they are already in, or they wont be. /end

I've been playing the last two installments of Elder Scrolls (Oblivion and Morrowind) and call myself a fan of the series. Despite the world being completely open and rich with complexity, I've always appreciated the clean approach the game has to questing, battling and overall interaction with the world. A key ingredient here is to have a world that is believable, but to leave out elements that do not fair well in the trade off between realism and pragmatism. Take toilet breaks, regular sleep and eating for instance. None of those are relevant in the world of Elder Scrolls, and a character will happily quest for weeks on end without any food, sleep or relief. This however has never caused me to loose immersion in the game, nor do I hear much complaints about it from the community, showing that this was probably a well made decision regarding the practical flow of the game by dispensing with some basic human realism.

For many parts of the game, fans can probably bicker for days on end about whether the decision in this trade off was well made. Toilet breaks - few would care less, but the inclusion of children for instance has always been a staple issue for fans of the series. Their omission in earlier series has certainly reduced the realism of the world, thereby reducing immersion slightly, with the other end of the trade off being the practical gain that a children slaying option for a game is not very popular marketing wise. I, for one, am very happy that children will be included in the next iteration, making it that much easier to immerse in a world where a clear lack of children simply irks.

This brings me to a different 'lack' in the world of The Elder Scrolls, and I shall be brief here. Despite romance not being at all relevant so far in the series, there is a clear inclusion of it as far as couples, families and general conversations go while enjoying the game world. Inn-keepers do have spouses and scoundrels do allude to the fairer six. Albeit another detail, it irks me again that there is little to no inclusion of any LGBT material in Tamriel, to the same extent as childless villages. Homosixuality is a fact of life in our reality, and seeing as how 95% of the behaviour of our human species has made it into the game, it is unlikely that there is not a single gay, lisbian, transgendered or bisixual person in the whole of Tamriel. Not even amongst the elfs (which, despite being a tired cliche, does make even more sense with their relative wisdom, age and openness). It does not require any active plot or main character to restore this balance, but there is no practical argument against the inclusion of LGBT NPCs, and yet a considerable amount of increased realism to gain. An inn-keep and her wife or a legend about two valiant princes would do.

Other popular rpgs (eg. Mass Effect, Dragon Age) have included LGBT realism in their game worlds (despite being heavy on some nasty tired tropes in that regard), so I cannot see why Skyrim should not at least count a few sturdy Nord battle-partners, or perhaps even a lovely dragon couple of similar gender. It should not bother anyone (if it does, the rock you live under should bother you more) and there are at least some people out there who would benefit from this addition when immersing themselves in the next Elder Scrolls game.