Here's where you're making a huge mistake concerning gay people: They are JUST LIKE YOU AND ME. If Beth introduced a couple (male and female) that didn't really have any quest purpose, and then decided to change them to a gay couple, they'd have to do the following:
- Change one of them into a male/female character.
- Rename this character
- Slight variations in their dialogue
This is something I could do right now in the Oblivion CS and it'd take about 10 minutes (since it was a while now since I used it)

- Why would I need to refurnish a house? Do gay people furnish their houses differently?
- Even if they were involved in a quest, why would I need to redo triggers, quest scripts etc. just because I changed one of their genders?
-What beta testing would be neccessary after changing a characters gender? I don't know about you, but as I said, I could do these changes very easy with a standard couple in Oblivion (only the vioice acting would complicate) and I doubt it's suddenly turned super-hard or complicated to change genders with the Creation Engine.
- Voice-overs, MAYBE. But that is generally the last part a developer does. Who says there's not time enough left? If they're still fixing the horse-mechanics, as you said, they probably haven't begun any major recording yet.

Exactly - it's not "our" reality - so why bring up the comparison with "our" medieval times? Homosixuality has already been in TES.

This is a bad assumption. I've seen tweets from several of the quest developers in recent weeks about their work (never anything specific or telling, just that they are building quests) - so develop is certainly Not over. You should instead think of testing as something that starts very early on in the game, and continues right up until the final disc is burned and sent for copy/distribution. For example Todd said the dragons are largely done, and already do cool attacks on the ground and in the air - they will certainly be testing Those now. The quests and other things still in development will be tested much closer to release, and that's why much of the voice acting happens very late - they want to pack in as much questing as they can. It's a good thing, but they are by no means Done with development.


Again assumptions on how long it takes to develop a game are pretty dangerous to make - especially since they specifically stated that they have built a new engine. That means the main Core of the program is re-done, and that is often the gardest thing to code. The new Gamebroyo provides rendering yes, but that's just one of many functions. I would shy away from such assumptions on how long it takes to make a game until we more fully understand what was built and put in. Using existing code is as old as programming itself, it makes things more efficient to build, but the scope may be so huge that it takes very long anyway.

He was referring to how long it takes to build a new NPC in the game, not how long it takes to model/animate a new character - you were not specific. It really does take about a minute to craft an NPC in the GECK.

Back on topic - I don't care either way, but it certainly wouldn't bother me if they had homosixuality in the game. I wouldn't spend time watching it or engaging with it in any role play sense, but it was common in the old world and could be represented in at least some fashion without offending people. Sure would love it, some would hate it - same as everything else.

Elder scrolls is not medieval.

Its fantasy. They are quite advanced and probably closer to our renaissance.

Okay, I'm going to be as nice as possible with this one.


People did complain about this, moreso in Fallout. That's why Obsidian gave us hardcoe Mode, it makes you fight hunger, dehydration, and sleep deprivation. People liked it so much that a lot of people are asking for a hardcoe mode in Skyrim that has similar effects.


LOTS of people do NOT want children in Skyrim, mostly because we interacted with the good folks of Little Lamplight. Because we had to mod the game in order to, well, we're not allowed to discuss this, but THAT was a nasty immersion breaker. Having children in any video game makes every dope at Fox News and the PTA to go "ZOMG FOAR TEH CHILDRUN!" and something had to be done to shut the media up. It pissed me off, it pissed off a LOT of other people, and we have all excepted the fact that you can't have children in this game without somebody making a big deal about it, so we've all decided that it is more prudent to stop asking Bethesda to give themselves a media fiasco.


You may have a point, but when it comes development time, they need to prioritize what gets done. If it's between having a few gay couples in the game or having a big fight scene involving you shooting a harpoon through the midsection of a dragon, I'd prefer them to work on including the latter. You DO have to face facts that TES has used minimal homosixual materials in the game, so if it does slip their minds, then they will get so far along into the production of Skyrim that they are beta testing and getting a live build ready to hit the shelves and are done with production. There may be little arguing about whether it's practical for gay material to be included in Skyrim for the sake for immersion, but there IS a whole argument to whether it would be practical to devote a few weeks to building it into the game especially when they are working all the bugs out at this time.

Also, I may be wrong here, but I thought the guy that gives you the House Halauu (or however you spell it) quests was openly bisixual.



Three things to remember here. First, this isn't Mass Effect or Dragon Age and Bethesda doesn't need to give a damn about how Bioware makes games. If they want to, the TES team could put in a violent crackdown and persecution of homosixuality. That was also part of our society and history. Second, dragons? It just seems like that would be a wtf moment for me there, especially if what some people were saying about the dragons, one at a time would be a tough fight, so having partner dragons would be kind of tough to put in with it appealing to you and still keeping the game balanced and smooth. Lastly, if you want to get your point across without either being a [censored] or shutting a bunch of people out, then don't make an attack as you did. If you think somebody is ignorant because they have something wrong with homosixuality, then for the love of god DO NOT tell them they are living under a rock. Respect that a Christian (even Jewish or Islamic) upbringing usually leaves the person with, at the very least, an uncomfortable feeling because all their life, they were told that being gay sent you to hell. If you do, there is a MUCH higher chance that you can build a bridge instead of a wall, and if you don't, then there is a good chance that they will tune you out and put you on their ignore list. The opposition may seem like a crowd of morons half the time on any issue, but they really are just people with different beliefs and they have feelings just like you.

PS. If you can't just play the game because the lack of homosixual content, go pickup New Vegas and select the appropriate perk.

Ok, do you know what they did to open homosixuals in the renaissance?

If the Dunmer are any indication, Tamriel is even less tolerant than Earth was at that time period.

*cough* Leonardo Da Vinci.
No, thats a too narrow view of Earth history and culture and an uninformed one about Tamriel's.

Vivec was a hermafrodite and taught his ordinators the art of spear biting, I believe.

And then theres things like:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:A_Bloody_Journal
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_14
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Ahzirr_Traajijazeri

As I said, I have no reason to assume Bethesda will deviate from what they did in past games, add flavour and spice.

For every character they add in they have to put TIME AND WORK into it. God people why don't you get this? If it was so damn easy to code and mod why haven't they finished that MP mod for Oblivion yet? Why are some mods taking people months to make? Even in a game as simple as the 8-bit minecraft it takes weeks to add in new monster.

You have to understand that those people come from somewhere, they don't just appear in the game. They come from a guy who spends his time putting them into the game, making them a house and making sure they work properly, and that takes time, TIME. Not skill, not this, not that, it takes time.

Right now, go right now and open CS I want you to add a gay couple in. Let me know how long it takes you. Remember they have to 1. have a schedual this means they wake up have breakfast go to work takes breaks go to lunch go home have some free time then have dinner interact with other npc's then go to bed to repeat it all the next day, they have to work, this means 2, you have to make a job for them, they have to 3 have a dialog, they need a house thats number 4, that house has to be placed in the world somewhere, then you have to make each room and decorate it that 5, then you need to go back and test it to make sure that they all work.

Once you do that, do it for every city in the game. I expect you to be done within two hours. Since you all seem to talk like all they have to do is wiggle their noses and they are in there then I make this challenge. I guarantee you that you will spend 1-2 days working on it if not longer. Now I am sorry I don't want them spending 1-2 days making some gay couples to make you happy. I want them to spend 1-2 days fixing code.

Point and example, look at how long it took them to make the Kvatch mod. Go look at the time it took them to make that, and all they did was add in a town with people. It took them quite a bit of time.

Last I checked, we don't have gods that get up to stuff that make complaining about people being gay seem pointless. When your *gods* have no great inhibitions, why should you?
A vast amount of homophobia is justfied through religion, and while I'm sure without it there would still be homophobia, I really couldn't say what the effect of a proven-true pantheon of gods such as TES' would have on a society, but I highly doubt it would develop in the same paths of thought as ours.

@Sotik; Please, stop talking. The issue of shoehorning multiplayer aspects into an inherently singleplayer system has nothing to do with it, and is a great technological challenge. Minecraft is not 8-bit, and adding a monster to it does not take weeks, designing a balanced and unique monster on the other hand, could take a little while, but the actual programming in an already-complete system such as minecraft is minimal. You don't have to code everything from scratch, your monster inherits its pathfinding from the base monster class, loads a model and texture, and bam, you have a moving monster. The specific coding takes a little longer, but last I checked, gay people couldn't climb walls without grip and they don't explode if you get too close, so there's no issue there.

And, again, I reiterate, your damn programmers aren't the ones making NPCs. Your entire point is based on an invalid view of a development scheme that doesn't exist implementing a homophobic satire of gay NPCs. You are wrong. It's not often I get to say that, because often opinions come in to it, but in this case, you are wrong. Utterly.

I'm almost certain there's a God that promotes all kinds of sixuality in TES. There's also books which represent homosixuality in a way which doesn't condemn it or anything. Does anyone know which God that was? I still think it's Sanguine. Will go see what I can see...

[Edit]: I see Merari has mentioned Vivec - maybe that was who I was thinking of...

@ Sotik - skyrim is still in Pre - Alpha stage , so i guess there is a lot left to be done.

on topic - hetro , homo , or w/e sixuality.. is'nt high on my want list - but eitherway i could'nt care less.

I dont think being homosixual in tes would be any worse than being daedra worshiper, I have met npcs in oblivion who have met or are a daedra worshiper. those people don't seem to be attacked or shunned in oblivion so i would expect the same for someones sixual orientation.

Try not to misquote me - I did not say Tamriel is 'based on pre-1911.' I said it 'draws inspiration from.' And I don't think you can deny that aspects of TES are inspired by real world history. Skyrim and the http://img150.imageshack.us/f/thirsk1pg5.png/ are clearly heavily influenced by the http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs51/i/2009/264/2/7/Norse_Architecture_by_Navanna.jpg culture. http://www.abiro.com/lab/oblivion/ES4_Oblivion100013.jpg drew many similarities with feudalistic societies in http://www.columbia.edu/cu/gsapp/BT/BSI/HISTORY/mediev-1.jpg. In Morrowind, the http://img355.imageshack.us/i/legioostae9qw.jpg/ was noticeably similar to the http://img2.prosperent.com/images/250x250/halloweenmart.com/media/core/FR44115_ROMAN_ARMOR_SET.jpg No, there were never any http://images.uesp.net//0/01/OB-Window-Mara.jpg but we do have http://1-background.com/images/christian/christian-mary-stained-glass-background-tile.jpg Perhaps there was no real magic, but there were certainlyhttp://warlockasylum.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/burning.jpg No http://pnmedia.gamespy.com/planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/images/TES4PS3Oblivion03.jpg planes - what about Heaven and http://www.footballfancast.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/hell.jpg?

No, my thoughts are not based merely on the use of swords, and neither is it based on my playing of one game. I've stripped off for Crassius Curio in Morrowind, seen the temples in Daggerfall. Still, every idea has a source. The art of originality is hiding your sources.

Despite me telling everyone to respect one another and not use insults, there is the better part of a page that is people getting into a damned religious argument, and you are either insulting the other poster or the god he worships. We COULD have discussions over this, if people wouldn't resort to being so childish about this mess.

Can we get this topic locked before the moderators start handing out warnings and bans, please?

Indeed, and while there are certainly similarities I think the differences are, at least in this area, far more appropriate. Witches were burnt, but TES has organizations dedicated to helping them, for example.

How come all fantasy stories have to have that one gay elf that wants to chop you up the poo? Seriously, I was playing Dragon Age: Origins for the first time, and I'd just killed a few bandits when this fruity lil elf comes out of no where.

"Can I tag along? "
*backs away slowly* "... No thanks, buddy. <_<"

An excellent point. Still, I can't see the same being true for homosixuality, especially in Skyrim. I can imagine perhaps in the Somerset Isles, or another non-human province they would be more leniant. But a land such as Skyrim, where warfare is a central pillar of their culture, and everything about them is very masculine and alpha-male-ish, I can't see them tolerating open homosixuality.

As I said, I wouldn't care if it's in the game in a subtle manner. It would certainly add character if done right. Worshippers of Sanguine perhaps, who stay away from large centers of population and are suggested to engage in acts of homosixuality. An elf who lives by himself, who other NPC's refer to and suggest he may not like women. These things I'm fine with. But to be confronted with it openly in the street would not fit in with Skyrim's norse culture.

Well what, in real life, is the main reason homosixuals were/still are persecuted? I'll give you a hint, it's not something that exists in TES.

I would love for there to be a few same-six couples in Skyrim. The way NV handled it was quite tasteful, so I'd like to see something like that -- nothing forcing you into a relationship (same six or otherwise), but if you do get the option to choose a partner (I doubt there'll be that option, though) that gay/bisixual people are included as choices.

That's true, stereotypical flaming gays probably wouldn't fit in, but I have a hard time believing skyrim is populated *entirely* by alpha male warrior types, and even so, there's nothing stopping them from being gay either. I think subtle is, of course, the way to do it, that somebody is homosixual should not dominate their character, it's an incidental feature, not their defining one.

I agree with this. If there was "the gay character", whose main interests are "being gay", and that's all his/her conversations revolved around, I'd be very disappointed.

This would just get Westboro baptist church picketing the game... I'm open to robust man love myself though.

I've always considered the lack of homosixuality in Tamriel to be similiar to the "lack" of it in the medieval Europe. People simply would burn them alive.

Thinking this way has given this world a somewhat darker edge, and I'm a svcker for dark fantasy/sci-fi.

There is already a bisixual character, Crassius Curio. Also, it's a game. You're looking too much into it.

I have no problem with gay NPC's .As long as it's not over the top.
Besides....does anyone remember the gay orc in "The missing pauldron" ? ( he made amber armour for you )
Even though i'm not gay....i found it amusing,not harmfull in anyway.
Each to their own.

Rather not, thanks. If included, it shouldn't be the in-your-face kind, which tends to be offensive.