let me rehash that for you.

you walk down the road and see a fortress full of bandits. you go in, you die mercilessly as you find they are much higher level with much better gear. you avoid it.

you come back later in the game. now you steamroll tem all yawning along the way.

if your lucky, you manage to go back to it at the appropriate level and get a good fight.

how would you "have heard" about this group of bandits before? how would you ensure a player always has this forward knowledge of encounters? you cant. therefore it stands to reason that my scenario will happen much more hten yours in a non scaled environment.

its more realistic in a non scaling environment to have a good challenge only 1/3 of the time.

and i disagree with the idea of becoming godlike...any game that does that the majority of its content becomes trivialized and boring, id rather keep a challenge.

All in all, after reading all of that, I in all honesty, don't believe a damned thing you've said. I don't think you have ever touched Morrowind or any RPG besides Oblivion and Skyrim for that matter.

Oh well, not that it even matters, I'll just wait for a non-scaling mod and leave you to your imaginary world. Have a nice day sir, I'm going to ignore this thread.

i actually just posted about it before your post. i found the mod i was talking about, its called TIE. it completely unscaled the world except for newbie areas like main roads and around cities, everything else however was completely random at any level. lots of people including me that played this mod had nothing but high praises for it and it was one of the main competitors fo FOCM that i eventually removed because it got to busy and overcrowded the gameworld. playing the game that way is leagues better than having any levelscaling. skyrim is a major improvement over oblivion though as early on if you explore around you will die alot......which is just how i want it.

i completely agree with you point about why we dont see the AI use racial ablities. i wouldnt even mind if they made them normal spells for the NPCs so that they could use them more than once per day.

glad to see your juvenile biased attitude gets in the way of a real discussion /rollseyes

im 25 and ive played rpg's since i can remember. i still do pen and paper dnd 1st and 2nd edition (4th edition is too much like world of warcraft), played great games like planescape torment, baldurs gate, diablo, titanquest, witcher, mass effect, dragon age, and the list goes on and on. i own mostly rpgs of varying types and is my main game i play. i play predominently computer and ps3 with a heavy leaning towards comp. probably my favorite "gamey" action rpg is dark souls currently.

and yes, i felt at level 20 morrowind became easy

and you obviously have no idea what linear means, it ha a wider definition then strictly one path. but is still restricted in comparison to a open world rpg.

i also hated oblivion btw...dont know why, just didnt like it.

but im sorry your stuck in 10 years ago and want to be able to grind ahead and steamroll old content and flex your imaginary epeen muscles (you want to be condescending i can do it too friend).

and your last comment is just hyperbole, morrowind isnt nuanced enough in its combat to outskill anyting. you either outgear/level it, or you exploit it. show me a video of someone doing that and ill show you how they are doing one of the 3.

sorry, you must have gotten rose tinted lasic surgery lol.

I have no idea why I bother, we both have our own views and opinions. I was just trying to show you that you aren't looking at the issue from more than your perspective. My opinion is Open-World or completely Linear, it doesn't matter, level-scaling is horrible in RPGs. There is no point in finding Generic Sword of Awesomeness +10 when a lowly bandit with Generic Sword of Utter Crap -1 is still a challenge.

It's an RPG, you are supposed to get stronger while the world around you gets weaker, it's called progression and achievement. Games staying a consistent difficulty are for action and shooter games. It does not work in RPGs.

Now all I've seen from you is insulting my opinion while giving nothing to support your opinion. Instead, I read: Juvenile, Biased, epeen (sigh), and something about rose tinted lasic surgery (?).

Anyway, see my posts as anything you want, I don't care. I stated my opinions and that's the end of it. If you wish to continue, that's on you. Though, you will be conversing with yourself as I have better things to do than have my opinions being insulted by such drivel as "epeen". Good day sir.

Yeah, a lot of problems with Skyrim but nothing more than I expected. I'm happy.

Paraclete has a point here, yeh... Im lvl 28 and already starting to see signs of what he's saying, ie bandit chiefs and master conjurers that seem like the supermutant overlords of Skyrim.. but I wonder if the prob old-schoolers have with the uber mini-bosses is the fact that they are nameless nobodies, as opposed to say an ancient evil necro lich bastard whose coming was foretold in prophesy. After all, its almost embarassing to have your Dovahkin @ss kicked by anonymous Briarheart #33.. :wink_smile: Personally, I've had some seriously metal deaths at the hands of master conjurers mini-bosses :toughninja: , and I don't enjoy the challenge any less cos they are anonymous randoms, but I get how those more steeped in the tradition of the "infamous nemesis" rpg trope find such scenarios.. unimmersive :whistling:

And since some people have doubted it, http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197988732882/screenshot/649872251732025719/?tab=public. And with a sapphire too :goodjob:

I guess they thief out of habit, rather than need :lmao:

Oblivion have amazing mod called FCOM - OOO + MMM best Oblivion mods ever. They fixing scaling and generic enemys and making game ever better then skyrim.

I agree with OP.

People claim that static leveled enemies would reduce exploration that is a lie.

Lets say Skyrim had 100 locations for the sake of argument. 30 could be level 1-15 areas, 40 could be 16-30 areas and 15 could be 31-40, 10 for 40-45 and 5 for 45-50. This would allow for tonnes of freedom, realism and a sense of progression.

Currently, there are 100 areas, all of them are for 1-50. If you are level 1 the area is for level 1, if you are level 30 then area is level 30. By the time you are level 35 you cross a threshold and you are so powerful (due to the poor scaling which shouldn't be there anyway) that even the toughest enemies are too weak you are in GOD mode and then other 50% of the game is tedious and repetitive. Please note this has nothing to do with Smithing or Enchanting, you can become a God without them.

I have been having problems with playing Skyrim after rerolling my character because it feels as though I am just going through the motions as all enemies are within the easy range and so is the loot. THERE IS NO SENSE OF REWARD. Mixed with the bland, rushed fetch quests and travelling from one cave to another its boring. No idea why they don't have many quests OUTSIDE!! Thankfully the beauty of the game world and the combat are the saving graces of this game otherwise I wouldn't touch it.

If they implemented the same system that had in Fallout 3 and what Obsidian had with Fallout New Vegas then there wouldn't be soo many complaints. The fallouts had it PERFECT. A lot of areas were low level, a lot were mid-level and a lot were high-level. IT WORKS!

I play for the exploration and i agree with OP 100%. I just wish he wouldnt attack bethesda by saying things like "lazy" because it makes his argument look less valid.


I was thinking of making a thread just like the OPs. I think that there needs to be less level scaling. I enjoy entering a dungeon as a level 12 with steal armor and weapons and seeing someone in ebony run at me, I say "oh crap looks like ill need to come back here later" then I run away. That makes exploration way more fun. Not knowing wether or not the dungeon you see across the lake is going to be a simple smugglers den filled with petty bandits that you will kill easily or a mine that accedentaly broke into some ancient deadric ruins and is filled by golden saints that eat your face makes the game way more enjoyable to explore.

Ack, run on sentence much? but I'm too busy playing skyrim to fix up my paragraph guys sorry. The game is fun its just...

uuuuuuum, not all bandits attack you without warning, the bandits outside whiterun in the fort for example, you can walk up to the fort, and they will show aggressive behavior, but they wont immediately attack you unless you dont leave or provoke them

its common sense not to go running straight into an area without knowing what your getting yourself into, and usually when do you can generally just get out and run your ass off

if the combat wasnt the same pos that oblivion with the same [censored] AI, then balancing wouldnt have been half as hard as it ought to be.

""""""how would you "have heard" about this group of bandits before? how would you ensure a player always has this forward knowledge of encounters?"""""

uuuuuhhhhh i guess there isnt any tools in the world of game design to allow a player to use their eyes, and i guess dialogue is also never an option either, geez your right, this game cant be anything but a casual monotonous scaled love affair for those suffering from a lack of mental capacity to work out and piece together possible scenarios, something as simple as "big strong man + orcish/dwarven armor = hur dur"

looks like ill be leaving you to your casual mediocrity while i go play risen 2 when its released.

You are actually describing encounter zones, not statically leveled enemies. Fallout 3 had them, Skyrim has them. Fallout 3 had encounter zones that had minimum levels for enemies so if you went there early, you would be over-matched. (I won't say owned; Fallout 3 is too easy.) Skyrim also has encounter zones, only the levels appear to be somewhat higher for some of them. My third level character found a vampire lair right after leaving Riverwood and got owned by the Vampire Lord (or whatever it was) so bad that I still won't go back. Encounter zones are still in there. They might not be scaled as high as you'd like, but I'm not sure how arguing for more scaling is proving that static designs work better. What you're saying, more or less, is that the system you've described, which is essentially the system that exists, would add to 'freedom, realism and a sense of progression'. Couldn't agree more. Glad that's the way Skyrim was designed.

Regardless, of what your game is doing, mine is borked. (Other ppl have reported this too.)

So, It obviously doesn't work that way at all, I believe they said it was random, meaning respawning enemies could be gods, or absolute jokes, but for me, everything has respawned a god. :shrug:

---

As for ppl claiming Morrowind was easy, yeah, if you abused the game, but let's not forget, level scaling exist because of all the "Wah, it's too hard, me no get where I try to go!" complaints we had after it's release. So, yeah, after playing MW for the billionth time(or googling), it can be easy, if you purposely OP your character, but, it was also hard as nails for nearly every single player who faced it legitimately their first times through. (I'm playing right now, level 20, and the Goblins in Tribunal still pwn my character. With my play style, I don't get OP until around lv40+, and even then, as a mage, reflect is my enemy, and it's everywhere.)

Here's an idea, play the game, don't power level, don't abuse the economy, and save extra pursuits such as Enchanting\Alchemy until after you are very high level. (Also, just because you know exactly where every Daedric item is, doesn't mean you have to collect them.)

Then tell me how easy MW is....(My lv20 is getting smacked down by goblins, and DB in Tribunal. Seems fine to me... And I challenge ANYONE to beat the lich in Firemoth at level 10 without power leveling, easy, lol, it took me over an hour to win that battle fairly. Or try Vivec if that's too easy for ya.)

So, enough with the rose colored glasses BS, I still play MW, and I will always play MW, not out of nostalgia, but because it's the only game I can put 500+ hours in, it's the only game that has a world I call home. I'll say it again, I play these other games, but I live in Morrowind. (I have been known to spend over 9 hours just decorating my home, because, it was my HOME. Understand that, and you'll see the distinction between the "whiny" MW crowd, and yourselves. Between gamers, and roleplayers. I never play MW to beat it, that's not the point, I may at some point do so, but it's never the real goal. Hope that makes sense.)

/rant

No. Morrowind did an absolutely terrible job with the level-scaling. From my experience, it had only two kinds of dungeons: Those you could breeze through after ~ level 10, and a handful that would curbstomp you until you abused Alchemy to become Pun-Pun, with nothing between them (Sometimes in a geographical sense).

As far as Skyrim's level scaling goes: I have no clue what game you're playing.

For the Argument "You should be able to kill dragons at < level 5"... Erm, from a lore standpoint, if a Dragon had decided to attack the Dhovakiin when he was a baby in a stroller, that Dragon would still get pwnt by Baby Dhovakiin dual-wielding Rattles. Dhovakiin have an inherent resistance to Dragons, and Dragons have a critical weakness to Dhovakiin attacks. If the Dhovakiin weren't around, Mirmulir (Or whatever that first dragon's name was) would have been an invincible, Whiterun-consuming juggernaut.

Unfortunately for our Dhovakiin, Bandits (Who's job description includes "Wrecking Adventurers") aren't dragons. They, like our Heroic Dhovakiin, are human. None of them are significantly weaker or flimsier than the Dhovakiin, simply less skilled. Bandit Marauders have pretty much made the wilderness their [censored]. It's what they do.

As far as that guy in Riften: He's been knifing people long before your hero ever even touched a sword or cast his/her first spell. That fancy-shmancy armor's not going to stop him from stabbing you to death: he knows all the weak points. All of them.

I don't think that's accurate. I think level scaling was designed to solve problems that static leveling can't solve (eg. repetition, respawning, replayability). They're not mutually exclusive, and every ES game uses both to one degree or another, as far as I'm aware, though my experience with Arena and Daggerfall is pretty limited. Sorry if your game isn't behaving itself, but mine is behaving exceptionally well.

Arena and Daggerfall's level scaling was just as aggressive as Oblivion's: Except the level the monsters thought you were varied inversely to your "luck" attribute, while the level your loot thought you were varied correspondingly with the "luck" attribute. (Meaning low-luck characters got [censored] loot from hell-leveled enemies, while High-Luck characters got a Monty Haul)

The level scaling is fine, most of the game doesn't even scale to you.

The credibility of your arguments would do better if you didn't use such insulting language.

I don't think you are giving the complexity of creating a balanced level-scaling system a fair shot. To say the developers are being "lazy" is just wrong as they have already proven that the amount of time and energy put into this project exceeded anything seen in the series so far. The issue is deeper than that, in my opinion.

Level-scaling does seem at times to be broken, but in an open-world environment, it really is the best way to ensure a challenge in any location at any given time. True, BGS hasn't quite nailed the system yet and I doubt they will perfect it any time soon.

Agreed. It reminds me of the Civ formula- 4x strategy is awesome... And then newer, bigger, better is still awesome... But at each game, the fundamental concept will need innovation to stay fresh. That said, I think Skyrim nailed it, and the formula works peachy for me. I'm constantly challenged and also get to play with my food, so to speak.

I recall Dragon Warrior, where going into a new area and dying repeatedly was kinda great... But in retrospect, I like being able to hide and live as needed.

There is no leveling as far as mobs are concerned as far as I can see.

It's linked to your level in part but mobs don't level with you as such.

Hard mobs are present even at low levels especially with the random world location mobs.

Levels (difficulty) is tied into the names of the mobs, and more of the harder mobs enter the world or become available in some cases as your level increases.

It seems to be tied to the names (types) so that it does not give you a feel of not progressing at all.

Once again, the forum is plagued with people talking about stuff they don't understand lol
OP, only guards, dremora, Alduin, stormcloaks, and imperials level with you. That's it! No one else!

"Even the greatest of soldiers can be brought down by a stray bullet" all armor as weakpoints u get a knife in back u dead

How come nobody has mentioned Morrowind? It was an incredible game and it didn't have any level scaling, so to all those people who said level scaling is necessary in Skyrim, well you're wrong. Same with F:NV, it had no level scaling. I think Bethesda should've just stuck with that way of advancement. Also, I haven't even seen much level scaling in Skyrim, I find it hard to notice. The only hint I can find is that a draugr boss attacked me at the end of Bleak Falls Barrow rather than a dragon priest like in Todd Howard's demo.

That one with the gold claw, I've done that at low level and killed the boss within seconds. I've also done it at around level 10+ and the fight was much harder as the boss had more spells including a disarm feature, that fight took about 10 - 15 minutes.

Not sure if the name of the mob changed thought (it might have), or with bosses it might be that more features become available to them.