Can we get this guy a medal?

This. It ensures wherever you go you face an appropriate challange.

I may even say I wish it was like Oblivion where EVERYWHERE scaled with you, even if you have been there already. There is nothing more hilarious then going to a cave full of bandits with iron weapons and fur armor, in my full Dragonplate to collect my 100 gold bounty...

You can improve any gear with smith to reach armor cap. I love It, I can play on master without being habdicapped and keep looking awesome.

Some people would prefer a linear story where you can go to different regions and find different degrees of difficulty, each region finding more powerful foes than the last, but having your character advance to meet the challenge. They don't realize it's the same thing here... just letting you choose the path to take.

There's not an issue. It's just your opinions. And if there are even 2000 threads saying the same thing, you're still a minority, because we haven't heard a word about the rest of the people who make a majority. For Bethesda to go and do what you say because you want it that way would be biased and stupid for everyone else. Some of us enjoy the level scaling, becuase we like to be able to explore the entire map as soon as we exit Helgen, without having to level up just to cross that next mountain. This isn't WoW and we don't want to level up to 80 just to go see the throat of the world, or all the other places we've been reading about since Daggerfall. Get a mod and fix it yourself. There's no reason Bethesda should or would have to cater to your opinions. If this was something like the crashing to desktop, then yeah, that would make since, because that is a real issue and not just an opinion.

Id just like to mention this just about explains everything that was wrong with the static system we saw in Morrowind, the only other system we have seen Bethesda use.

Why level scaling works. It works because it challenges the player to evolve over time. Level scaling works in a lot of situations and does not in a few. Your example of where it doesnt work is one of a few places where it should not have been implemented. However, just because the execution was not perfect does not mean the concept fails, just that it is flawed. WHy should Bethesda choose where we should go at which levels? The answer, they shouldnt and they dont. They dont want to dictate the content we should be doing, that would be a Linear RPG, welcome to the Diablo 2 world. The point of an open RPG is the ability to go where you want, when you want to do what you desire. The game (especially Skyrim) reads what you are doing and modifies the game to be challenging. This is because there is one of two evils here. Either Bethesda turns the TES series into a linear RPG, or we get a system where the game is always a challenge.

If you want a Linear RPG, I wont sugarcoat it, please leave. I dont want a linear RPG, I dont want to be told what to do and when. Ive been through that, its called World of Warcraft and its a [censored] system to play in. I would rather be challenged every step of the way, forced to change my strategies from level to level and learn new methods of defeating hard foes then Bethesda designing a game by area.

Its about challenging the player, play Demon Souls, thats the perfect philosophy of where RPGs should be going. It should be challenging the player, not babysitting us.

Same could be said for what you just typed up "You are not special, nobody values your opinion above anyone else", so why did you bother replying to this thread?



Anyways, ON TOPIC: I agree with the OP. The scaling system is by far one of THE worst I've encountered in recent memory. I'm bored to death of "simple" enemies being harder to kill at high levels. Why do mudcrabs, wolves, simple bandits(in LEATHER armor), etc all scale? It's a pisspoor attempt at keeping the game difficult as you play longer.

The more I play the game, the more it goes from a solid 9/10 to a mediocre 6.5-7/10.

OP has a point. a low life bandit shouldn't be able to kill a demi-god in daedra armour. then again, the pro-level scaling people are also right. leveled enemies would restrict you from certain places like in morrowind.

is there no balance between these both views?

perhaps level scaling stops from level 40 or something and certain small areas hold leveled enemies?

There is, it's called Skyrim and Morrowind. (Yes Morrowind had limited scaling too, deal with it.)

More like there's never any real challenge.

you can drain enemy magicka with a staff (does 20 points a second!!) and they can hit zero (but not without your help), but i agree with the infinte magicka and stamina thing, that gets very annoying when a hedge mage can hold a steadfast ward longer than the archmage can hold a lesser ward

Sigh, back into the mix yet again...

Anyways, I agree with OP, it svcks, and anyone who disagrees obviously doesn't know about OOO\Fran\MMM(FCOM even FTW).. (And hell yes they stole mods like crazy, including mine, and didn't even get it right.. )

This game could be much more than it is...

Yea I think a tiered system would work best. Have the game only scale CERTAIN enemies up to a specific level (say dragons, trolls, giants, bosses, etc), lets say level 40, and after that point (when you most likely will be done with the main quest, THEN the game scales EVERYTHING.

I actually like games that have some spots where you CANNOT survive at low levels. Otherwise it feels like Skyrim does now: illogical. Why should I be able to EASILY slaughter a dragon at a level lower than 5, but have trouble with simple bandits at level 40?

MixNMatch the two, segregate the game into specific lvl areas, I don't care what happens, but the next Bethesda game needs to have improved leveling or I'm done with their games.




Skyrim isn't challenging like Demon Souls; it's just illogical. And you do realize that Demon Souls has areas where you CANNOT go at a low level without being UTTERLY DESTROYED, right? Mentioning Demon Souls and then ranting about segregated high level creatures goes against the point you were trying to make.

And to suggest that you cannot have a well designed game without it being "linear" is frankly silly. You don't have to have all or nothing; it's easy enough to design a game that has certain areas that are harder than others (and it makes sense, there are areas in Skyrim like that already: Dragon Priests). The problem isn't with the higher level creatures (although they are VERY weak at low levels); the problem is with the more basic creatures/humanoids being WAY too powerful as you gain in level.

Also, you do realize that Bethesda hard codes certain quests so that you cannot do them until a certain level right? You sound like you don't understand the very things you are arguing for.

Yes I do.

The scaling in OOO/Fran/MMM is very freaking similar to that of Skyrim, you know.

They have that in SKyrim too. The Dragon Priests, the Draugr Overlords in Lost Valygg, the Bone Dragon in (wont name, find it yourself). The named dragons, Stormcloak/Imperial soldierws during the civil war missions, and almost all the beasts arent levelled. Skyrim has plenty of static creatures and areas as well, so I am assuming you wan the whole game to be dictated like this?

When i referenced Demon SOuls, I was more referencing the difficulty of the game. The game was about the learning curve. Wasnt about babysitting your character. You adapted or died in the game, something more games need to learn not to shy away from.

I'm getting weaker in relation to the new enemies everytime i level up. I was never oneshotted below level 10, now at level 37 that happens constantly :lmao:

Not in my version of Skyrim...

I've never stomped a creature in those mods, only to have it kill me 30 levels later. ???

I'm having regular saber cats kill me just like I'm level 1 again, at level 33... (In fact, my level 1 character did better against them.. OOO at least has the decency to call them "Super Saber Cats" or some such, and make me feel better about my life... Not Skyrim, it's like good job wasting 40+ hours playing, here's your prize, DEATH!!!)

I'm a pure mage level 27, only things that have one shotted me are giants, and this ward I didn't notice.

I'm starting to think people are making this up. Are you honestly telling us a "Bandit" that you handled at level 1 with ease is now owning you at level 30? Because I've been 1 shotting them for 42 levels now (even since level 5 or so).
The creature levels are STATIC! The game draws new creatures from the that particular subtype list (ie Bandit Outlaw, Bandit Highlander). To me, it sounds no diffrent than any other TES game (that includes the great Morrowind...yea...that drew higher level creatures from sublists as you leveled).

Telling us you are getting owned by the same lowly level creatures...I'm thinking you're just out right BSing to support your argument. It has never happend to me. It has never happend to me wife, or my son...My brother OR my best friend... all pretty high levels... and all pretty much stomping low level creatures with ease. Just so you know, the Bandit was just an example, but still. At level 30? Come on...


EDIT: Don't let the saber cats attack you from behind.. I think they can back-stab you. Hence the reason why they can take so much damage. After you face them...it's all chip damage from there.

It's pretty funny when people mention OOO, Frans, FCOM and most other mods that supposidly "removes" level scaling, because vanilla Skyrim reminds me a lot of those mods.

Why? Well there are no more bandits with epic glass armor, only bandits with different ranks, higher ones appearing only later on, but their leaders are much stronger, wearing interesting weaponry.

Also, it's not true how everything levels up with you and how you can get stuck and whatnot. I left Whiterun on grand adventure to find Riften and go to High Hrotghar, exploring the entire western area, getting a lot of levels. The enemies in the area were getting tougher as I went on, but when I returned back to Whiterun, to try out a dungeon I didn't had the courage to do before, I was breezing trough everybody. There were significantly less Highwaymans and chiefs than before, only their leader gave some manner of challenge.


As for dragons, well this is a game that is revolved around dragons, so you'll meet them at every level, that's why there are different types of dragons, with different difficulties for all of them.
Also, you cannot kill a dragon, alone, at level 1...

Honestly level scaling done right isn't that bad. I'd like to be able to be level 50 and have the giants kick my [censored]. I'd keep level scaling and have something else to even the score. Limb damage is something I'd love to see. That way, if the riften grifter gets me, it's because he first broke my sword arm, making me unable to fight, or hit me over the head with a mace and now I'm virtaully blind. The puzzles could use a lot of work as well (though I'll spare you the Zelda game dungeon rant). I don't see why "difficulty" has to always equal enemy level. It's actually the lazy way to make a tough level. There could be lots of other ways You'd have to get rid of regen in magicka and health to make potions necessary, for example and make part of the challenge that you'd run out of potions so you'd have to be careful in every encounter. You could as I said come up with enemies that shoot you in the leg or smash your sword arm, lowering your effective level to theirs. You could change the casting time of spells so that you can't just grow a big magicka pool and blast "enemies expolde" because the enemies would hit you 3 dozen times before the spell was cast. You could make the bandits behave more like units than individuals -- one guy snipes you while the other guy smashes you. Maybe even have them make use of a pit or cliff that you're six inches away from. I'd love to see a cold water mod where swimming in icy water gives you frost damage -- this is the frozen north after all.

None of that requires that the enemies be a higher level than me, just a little forsight and planning.

There are quite a few areas and quests in this game that have a level requirement. I've been into several caves and forts and have not been able to clear them out. I think the OP is wrong about level scaling too as Skyrim appears to employ a hybrid scaling system.

My take on scaling.

I want the enemies to become more powerful as I am becomming more powerful.

Why?

Because I want the game to remain challenging. I don't want to become more powerful faster than everything else, then run around and insta-kill every enemy in sight.

Sure, at level 1 you can kill a dragon. You saying dragons remain as strong as they were at level 1? No, they scale. So your dragon at level 40 is no easier for you now, than it was back when you were level 1.

I find the scaling to be a good way to keep the game interesting,

Then the game is glitched, because they are more powerful now, even more powerful than stronger versions of the same mob. (ie, plain draugr's are now more powerful than draugr wights, etc,.)

It's completely borked, and not fun.

--

I should note, it was completely fine until level 33, then it just broke, not sure what went wrong, but apparently the game thought I needed more of challenge. ?

IDK, but it svcks, I assure you.. (Restarted my game, and I'm making an OP build, just in case...)

If you level too much on non-combat skills, the enemies will become harder while you won't become stronger. The pitfall of level scaling with non-combat skills thrown in.