Giants. Fight one at level 1, get one-shotted. Fight 3 at level 20, and barely receive any damage.

You call that scaling?

Hell, just look at dungeons, they have level ranges..

And I'm sorry, but as for bandits, the regular kind (named "bandit") Are just as weak when you are level 1 than when you are level 30. How come I have trouble handling 2 at the same time at level 3, and yet at level 10 I can take on 5 PLUS a bandit outlaw?

The difference is at what level the higher leveled ones appear, and them again, that's only out in the wilds. Dungeons all have ranges. That cave of Kinareth is ALWAYS full of spriggans when you do the quest, PLUS a spriggan matron. At level 5 you can't make it through, unless you have a good companion and know how to use him. At level 30 you barely have any challenge doing it, even alone.
Draugr Overlords DO appear at lower levels. And they are tough as [censored].
Basic draugr keep appearing at higher level, and you can one-shot them pretty easily. Hell, at that level, I tried taking off ALL my armor, letting them hit me, and it still took them around 3 minutes to finish me off.


Sometimes I just wonder what game you guys are playing, because I have NOT seen that "enemies always one hitting me" problem. The only thing close to it would be playing on master difficulty, but then again, you are MEANT to feel weak at that level. (And it goes away at higher levels too)




WHAT?
I just tried it 15 minutes ago, on my level 35 guy. Draugr wights need about 8-9 good hits to be beaten, Regular draugr, only 2. They ALL fall to a single dual-weilding power attack.
Regular draugr need quite al ot of time to kill me, without armor (as said above).
As for the wights, even if I keep my armor on, they take less time to kill me than the regular ones

I've said it once and I'll say it again, level scaling is a necessary evil.Though it could use some tweaking (and it could) it is way better than oblivion's scaling IMO. I got smacked around plenty by some enemies and was able to take them out in later levels with my more experienced character as well as a little planning.

I think that those skills work well as long as you don't grind them. For instance, I play a Mage and the only potions I make are Magicka/Destruction/Health oriented; so my Alchemy skill levels slowly and the balance is stable. Similarly I don't use several skills at all and the only time they are increased is via skill books being read.

For myself, the balancing in Skyrim is a vast improvement over Oblivion but it has come with some losses.

This is a possibility, and I would report it as a bug. The Draugr are still 1 hit kills, and have been since...the games release (I vegged). They still drop their crappy "Ancient" line of crap that I don't either bother to pick up. Same goes for everybody I know. But I can confirm, so can the other peole I mentioned in my pervious post...and the Strat Guide that creatures are static. From what I gather, take Morrowind and Fallout 3 and smash it together...you have Skyrims system.

Well, other ppl are saying the same, that bandits are doing them in, and regular mobs, etc, so something is going on.

I can barely leave towns now, I was feeling pretty BA up until now, but the game decided to start punishing me for no apparent reason.

In fairness, I do use Destruction as a primary(which is known to be... a bit broken..), though, I do use mods to make it more powerful, but, still... (This also means I skipped a lot of health upgrades for magicka during leveling, I have about 160HP, and 260MP, and some stamina since I use 1H+Block as a secondary defense\offense.. (Those stats are off the top of my head, but it's roughly what I have.))

Sounds bugish to me. I play like a healadin (yea I played WoW for awhile) and my health isn't exactly where is should be for a tank/melee type character. Still no problems. I would report it...then again there has been much complaining. Maybe Bethesda has already looked into...who knows.

I keep reading that it's necessary, yet I haven't heard a single compelling reason for it to be so.

I think level scaling can be done intelligently. Certain powerful enemies (like dragons, vampires, werewolves, some mages, some warlords, etc.) should scale with the main character, as they are the elite. However, MOST enemies should not scale with you like, for instance, random theives who accost you on the road to Whiterun and can kill you in two or three hits. I mean, you're supposed to be a Dragonborn super-dragonslayer and you get taken out by the equivalent of a dime-store hood.

not to burst your bubble or anything but I was only getting one shot early in the game on master by bandit bosses etc and took a few deaths to kill them. now I can sit there and let them hit me forever without worrying about anything unless they're a mage. if anything this games scaling isn't very noticable at all on melee bosses except for the first 15-20 levels or so. I can still die in one hit from random mage bosses though and i'm 55. all it takes is a whirling sprint or fus ro dah and they're dead in one power swing.

Here's a list of reasons -> http://www.truancyfactory.com/articles/levelScaling.html.

I've had it since the mid 20's on my 2hander character. Bandits, mudcrabs, wolves, etc are all MUCH harder than they were at lvl 1-10.

I'm thinking the reason why some people aren't noticing this, is that they are either playing on the lowest difficulty OR they are exploiting the smithing/enchanting/alchemy system. Of course you aren't going to have issues when you're walking around in godtier glitched armor.

I used a mod early on that was supposed to make magic more powerful, but, I found it made item enchantments more powerful as well. (Way too OP.)

Do think that could have infected NPC's somehow? That's the only mod I can think of that might have caused an issue. (I reverted the changes, but, enemies might somehow have gotten messed up.)

Aside from that, it could just be a game bug.



Yeah, that thought crossed my mind, but I'm trying to avoid conflicts here, as I have a tendency to get banned for, well, being myself. :tes:

Imo my greatest problem with level-scaling is that the game's sense of challenge is flat and somewhat mundane. At least the beautiful and interesting dungeons of Skyrim help with this. But enemies and loot?

Until now having completed almost everything in the game (on master), dungeons seem to have the same difficulty. No surprises, no real sense of danger.
In every dungeon i've entered, i completed it until the end, knowing approximately what enemies i would face and what loot i would get, making my "dungeon hunting" more like a tedious chore.

I just don't see how level scaling is needed in this game, at all. If I'm wearing the best gear in game and I actually have the skills to use them well, I should own pretty much anything that is not my equal. That does not mean there can be nothing stronger than me, and that would be my challenge. If I pick up some simple quest from a random NPC, I don't expect to fight anything more powerful than common bandits, and common bandits should be the weakest hostile humanoids in the game. Imagine you're a powerful dragon slayer who had fought countless foes to reach the level you are at right now, would you even do some silly quest for someone for a tiny reward? You probably won't. But lets say you do, you already know its going to be a walk in the park. You are no longer do it for a challenge but perhaps something else. Now imagine your just some average joe who got lost in the woods and found a ruin fort with a dragon sitting next to a treasure chest that bound to have some high value loots in there. Would you even have the guts to try and get that sweet loot? You probably crap yourself when you saw a dragon in the first place. But lets say you do go in, and somehow you managed to kill the dragon, only to find a steel great sword and 200 gold. How does that even make sense anymore. How is that even fun at all?

In a logical, realistic view, the level scaling system makes no sense. In a game point of view, its not fun at all. So why even put it in? Instead of making things scale to your level, just make sure there are always something stronger than you, and for those who seek more power, that would be your goal in game. But if you add scaling back in, you'll eventually find yourself at the top only to be killed by a bandit wearing his undies and killed you with a toothpick.

Another thing is, why on earth do loots scale to you? Again it doesn't make sense in a logical way, and it sure doesn't in a game either. For balance reason, they might not want you to get the best gear when your only just an hour into the game, but it is only because of the level scaling makes it possible for you to get it in the first place. When I'm fighting weak easy foes, I expect crap loot, when I'm fighting tough foes, I expect great loot.

My take on level scaling, for what it's worth:

1) Unique items/loot should never scale. I know they did in Oblivion, if you found a quest reward artifact at a lower level, it was gimped with lower stats the whole game. This does NOT encourage you to get items at low levels, it makes the game linear, and I dislike this so much. Dragon Age made me furious with this, although there were ways around it like selling an item to a merchant then buying it back magicallly now for your level. It should never happen. If a unique item is in the game it should be fixed stats, and the guardians appropriate level, even if it means breaking the scaling and making the item hard/impossible to get for a low level character. The work around compromise would be to have the artifact increase in power with the character. I can go with this.

2) Creature/NPC scaling done well is fine. Oblivion did NOT do this well. Skyrim has room for improvement but is better. I went into the wrong cave at level 9, and ran into a Deathlord wielding an Ebony bow. He could one shot me no problem, but eventually I killed him after like 8 tries. I was rewarded with a great bow that would be useful nearly til endgame. That's awesome, and I want to see that.

Keep the monsters in the game that appear at level 1, such that I can still run into wolves, bears and bandits and now that I'm level 30 I can kill them with a snap of my fingers. Skyrim's done that. However, the higher level bandits are scaled too high and need to cap lower. Dragons are capped too low IMHO. They need to start harder and always progress faster than the PC and should always be a challenge except at level 50+ when they should stop. It is readily apparent that a dragon is weaker than a bandit leader to me, and that should never happen.

But by in large, I have a lot of issues with Skyrim (way too many unkillable NPCs even after their quests are long done and PS3 lag bugs being #1), the scaling isn't nearly as bad as it was in Oblivion or even some of the other scalable RPGs out there.

Some of the level scaling issues would be solved by having non leveled special items. If someone was able to work hard to get a super powerful sword at level 10, then they should be able to. And it shouldn't be worthless by level 20. Having non scaled bosses guarding the treasure would be good too.

Level scaling, in and of itself, really is fine, it's when you run into bad level-scaling that there's a problem. Oblivion was a classic example of bad level-scaling, in that it was applied to pretty much everything and also heavily overdone on the top-end enemies. Skyrim, on the other hand, doesn't do that, and in fact a lot of the enemies have a rather limited level range (Bandits and low-end animals, for example).

Perhaps it's just the impression I'm getting, but it seems that a fair percentage of those complaining abut scaling are not considering the high(est) levels when suggesting its removal. Scaling always seems the most annoying when you're in the middle of the level range, as it feels like you're not getting anywhere, however when you're at the top of the range it becomes clear why it was used, as those creatures that don't scale become mere nuisances not worth the time or ammo to deal with. Without scaling every enemy ends up like that, at which point combat is a boring chore that you're only doing because you can't proceed in the current quest if you don't.

Is Skyrim's scaling perfect? No.

Does that mean it should be scrapped instead of improved? No.

Now, one area of scaling that I do agree could use either removal or an overhaul is leveled unique weapons and armor, as this aspect of scaling works contrary to the rest of the system by actively discouraging exploration if one wishes to have the best version of said item. On the other hand, we can often create better stuff than even the best versions of some of these items, so I'm not sure just how worthwhile it actually is to rework this.

At a glance it looks like it's just a comparative anolysis, says nothing as to why it's a "necessary evil".




This is exactly my problem with it. I've never once walked into a dungeon and promptly exited due to getting my ass handed to me. You know in advance that enemies will be beatable (maybe there are a few exceptions out there, but I haven't found them) and the rewards will be entirely level appropriate, with even unique artifact weapons scaling to your level. There's little risk and even less reward.

I'm sick of this scaling svcks crap people with nostalia boners remembering morrowind.

Scaling is fine. The problem is the leveling system in skyrim. And how scaling interacts with it.

If it didn't have scaling ud just randomly hit impossible moments and breezy easy dungeons. Neither would be fun. Non scaling means idealy 1/3 of the time will be a good time. Scaling was done WELL in skyrim.

Ill say this. Your right on pretty much everything...but he scaling. Becoming a all powerful god and having no challenge left isn't fun...and if u want it. That's what's novice is there for.

I want a good time. I want to be challenged. Scaling can offer that all the time. Non scaling can't.

I didn't scroll down to read replies, because I'm sure many people will say "Quit whining, this topic has been done."

But you're right, and perhaps if enough people complain about the level scaling they may one day do something (but it's doubtful).

You hit it right on the head - there's nothing to look forward to when you can kill dragons right off the bat. That's simply ridiculous, as is the scaling. It's not "development" when everyone else automatically gains levels just because you do. It's one of the worst concepts ever introduced into games, and I don't know what they're thinking unless it's to pander to those players who want to be able to do everything without having to work for it.

This is also my experiance on a level 38 stealth archer. Bandits are annoying because they cost me arrows. Drauger are annoying because they cost me arrows and take up an extra 3 seconds of my time to get past. The wights are annoying because I have to take and extra 6 seconds to get past. The Deathlords are annoying because I have to use a spell or shout. I have been one shotted, but it's almost always by some quest boss (like the guy with the Staff of Magnus). Then I have to bring in an atronach and use poison or a few bars of mana. It's really very easy at this point, because I know the difference now between a real threat and a temporary target and I adjust.

I remember going through that Falmer cave near Whiterun a couple of times when I was below level 10. It was hard. Damn hard. I just ran through it again, and it was funny. I got some payback for the reloads.

The biggest issue I have with the scaling system is how it character leveling is so much more difficult to control in Skyrim vs Oblivion. I liked Oblivions skill system and leveling system much better. I had total control over how I wanted my character to develop, when I wanted him to level, and therefore a chance to determine how difficult or easy the game was. I don't like picking up 15 levels because I decide to work on crafting. That is flawed. The only solution I can see that would be reasonable would be to lower the effect that the non combat skills have on your level advancement, I'm thinking it would be reasonable to cut down the effect of those skills by a factor of 5 or even 8.


Also, so MUCH hyperbole ITT. Hyperbole doesn't make for a good argument.

There are but only a handful of exceptions. For example a hargraven - i don't know if it soft scales - but surely it does not scale like most enemies. I for example, challenged them at level 5 and got myself blown up by fireballs. I was like "at last something that knows the fireball spell while i'm level 5!!! - exciting" and i defeated it even though it was as hard as hell (the reward was scaled to my level though - letdown. I've challenged them at level 20 and killed them easier.

Now i would be happy if these weren't rare exceptions. Also having enemies such as bandits NOT upgrading and becoming thugs or godlike marauders and so on would not make the game mundane. On the opposite killing something easily among the challenges - something that could kick your ass in the past - gives a good sense of accomplishment. Atm the way the game does that is to spawn some low level bandits along with the upgraded ones... -.-

The thing is that the difficulty and reward in each dungeon i visited was more or less the same because of scaling :/

Reading all these different experiences, it's really making me question what is happening here.

There has to be a reason, perhaps a broken perk, racial ability, etc,. ?

All the sudden, I'm a level 1 back in Balmora, fearing Nix-Hounds, etc,. Meanwhile, these guys are breezing through on master(I'm on Novice, I dropped from adept about level 20 due to a growing discretion in my power and theirs.)

I'm a Dark Elf, level 33, Destruction\1H\Block with a few points in Restoration(Dual Casting is all I went for.), I've actually started moving 1H+Block up to my primary skills in a vain attempt at not being slaughtered, but, it's not working. Anyone with a similar build having issues, etc,. ? (I'm also a Werewolf, which admittedly could be used to wreck house on most stuff, but, I didn't train Destruction\1H\Block\Etc, just to throw em' all out halfway through the game.)

I have over half the destruction perks, a few in block, and the rest are in 1H, I do have some smithing experience, but, I haven't done much, just occasionally make some gear to sell, or upgrade my weapon if possible. (I have a superior ebony blade, atm, and a shield which boost magical resistance by about 15%.. I'm wearing the jester outfit with a Dragon Priest mask, it blocks elemental damage. I use the sneak to get a feel for what's going on b4 I run blindly into a room..)

That about sums up my playstyle, and equipment, etc,. (Obviously, not a very OP build, but, I was just playing the game, same as I do MW\OB\FO3..)

(Kinda tired, probably seems rambly, sorry.)

I'd really like to know how people are finding these dragons at level 1 in the first place. I'm almost 100% sure you'd have to use the console to put yourself at level 1 in order to do that. Unless you can somehow go through Bleak Falls Barrow and not gain any skills at all. I think the entire argument is just exaggerated like this. There are level locks in the game, and some creatures have minimum and max level scaling. That means that as a level 2 explorer, there are some places and creatures you just simply can't beat, becuase they can't scale that low. Wolves are a good example of max scaling. They can only scale up to a certain point, after that they're just one shot enemies. The scaling in this game isn't near what you try to make it, and it makes me wonder how far any of you complaining about it have actually played or paid any attention. As for other mobs, there's a sublist. They aren't the same enemies anymore. You're not getting killed by bandits at level 20, they have different names and attributes if you pay attention. They're not scaled enemies, they're different enemies.

No, it's ok your points seem valid. Every dungeon on master was literaly a breeze for me with my conjuration/destruction/enchanting/misc mage. It WAS NOT a breeze for my dual-wielding warrior though
I died a lot - mainly because i hate pausing the game to spam potions - seems un-immersive to me and i made a pact not to use any potions in the battle -except for preparation. But even with my warrior the challange was static from dungeon to dungeon.


@ thewayshemoves Well when they say dragons "at lvl 1" probably mean at lvl 5, same thing essentially.