http://www.courtneyhoskins.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/DoubleFacePalm.jpg I'm not going to continue with this irrelevant argument that's going in circles anymore.

Psst... Hey Hircine... Morrowind was more of an action game than Daggerfall, too

You know what happens at the other end of this spectrum? Stagnation. Look at Dynasty Warriors or Medal of Honor. Those are franchises that keep remaking essentially the same game, catering to the same fanbase, and hoping to hell that maybe a few svckers pick the game up for the first time as well. It doesn't matter that there are issues with the storytelling or gameplay, because the fans will buy it regardless.

What if the entire industry collectively decided in the 90s that they didn't need to try to improve the formula that their franchises were based on, and just kept rehashing the same games? Games like Heavy Rain, Shadow of the Colossus, Flower (and on the same note, the upcoming Journey), and Bioshock wouldn't be possible. Like it or not, progress is an inevitable part of human nature, and one that, I would say, has generally improved the medium.

Also, the only one talking about gameplay here is you. HeavyMetalArchmage was saying, and I agree, that each province should be designed to stand on its own legs in terms of design, not try to cater to some previous niche in their fanbase. I wouldn't want mushrooms or giant bugs in Skyrim (which, by the way, isn't Bethesda being fresh or original, it's Bethesda taking the Drow of D&D and dragging them onto the surface. Instead of ripping off medieval Britain, they were just ripping off the same source material that every fantasy RPG rips off), and I wouldn't want elven spires and lush forests either. I want Skyrim to be its own place with its own unique feel. As long as it does that, I could care less about the gameplay.

I know. <_<


Do these games have as alarge a fan base as Bethesda's games do?


There's a difference between completely changing a game, to modernising a game. Grand theft Auto, for example, changed from the birds eye view it had, because new technologies allowed it. The birds eye view wasn't the what the game centered around, so it was ok.


Of course. I'm saying that I just don't want a cliché game with boring forests and deer everywhere.

The big words there really piss me off,why because morrowind was more of an action game than daggerfall.Oblivion could have been more political if they didn't rush the game(they said that somwhere seti has a link in another thread)and tes v isn't being rushed so stop making drama about a rushed game not being as good as a game that wasn't as good(in your opinion)as a game that wasn't rushed.

Morrowind, in my opinion, is the best game ever created. I'm just not too narrow minded to point out it's flaws.

I haven't heard you say a single negative thing about Morrowind during your entire time on these forums :glare:

Did you not just see me complain about Morrowind being too action orientated?

Anyway, we're straying off topic, again. Don't wanna be mauled by a bear.

"Since Morrowind," meaning "after Morrowind"?

"Since morrowind," meaning "since Morrowind". <_<

...You may want to look that word up, sport.

Ok lets get back to lanscapes but one last thing we know that oblivion was rushed but maybe oblivion was also a test to see how fans would respond to bethesda changing major things.

They've done that throughout the whole series. It always causes mass flaming. I don't expect the games to stay exactly the same the whole way through, I just expect TES to keep to it's own identity, and stop changing majorly.

But if it didn't strive to be something new with every iteration, we'd still be playing the generic DnD clone that was Arena. Morrowind was incredibly different from both games to come before it. If it strove to keep the same identity in every iteration, we wouldn't have seen anything like it, because it's nothing like the green fields and lush fantasy wilderness of Daggerfall. So I don't understand your argument at all. You want it to be unique and fresh, but you don't want major change between iterations in the franchise, even though 3/4 of the numbered games in the series are actually pretty similar, and Morrowind is the odd one out.

It goes in circles because you keep contradicting yourself! Forget it. You're right, this argument is pointless. And wow, your use of Internet memes really does lend that extra air of credibility to your argument. Well-played, sir.

Really for the next TES if it were to be more of an "alien world" you would need a province that has a more "alien race" like Black Marsh, The Argonian province. So if they do Skyrim, Hammerfell, ext. It most likely would not be more alien.

If you look at Morrowind, commonly regarded as the most "alien" TES game, it was just a large, volcanic, ashy, lava filled wasteland where hardly anything could survive. Any province has the potential to be just as alien as any other.

Then, Hircine, lets stick to the topic and hear some ideas from you that could make The Elder Scrolls V more alien. And since you think that any province could look just as alien as Morrowind, please enlighten us with how Skyrim could live up to the Nix Hounds and giant mushrooms of Vvardenvall.

And Saint Jiub is right. Morrwind is the "odd one out." Arena, Daggerfall and Oblivion are all more similar to each other than Morrowind is to any of them. Its because the provence of Morrowind its self is more alien than the other provinces, not Bethesda deciding to take the easy way out.

I don't happen to be a concept artist. And for a good reason. also, I seem to remember I certain quoote not too long ago;

Yes, it always seems as if you wan't the worst for the series and best for what you think is right.
You are always turning debates into heated arguments and using stupid gestures like a Star Trek double faceplam when your tired of the argument that you have created.
You don't take the time to think other peoples ideas through and you are the first to contradict them, and sometimes yourself.

You are quite hostile and negative on these forums, Hircine. At least try to be nice for once. It will make this place nicer for everyone especially since you are one of the most active users.

Not to turn this into a gang bang, but I agree with this, even though I have never personally argued with you.

Quite often I agree with the things you are saying, but I am inclined to disagree, based solely on how you presented your argument: like if Beth doesn't do it your way they are ruining the game, or if you liked something about Oblivion, you should go play Halo.

Back on topic; I don't think Skyrim has to be geographically alien to be good. I agree with the person who said each game should have their own feel, instead of trying to replicate other games' feels. But the region should definitely be extreme and interesting, even if it isn't totally 'alien'.
What's more important to me personally, is interesting and unique flora and fauna. Don't use the same old minotaurs and ogres. I did like them in Oblivion because they looked cool, but Beth should definitely try to create their own unique creatures for TESV. I would like each creature to need a different strategy to defeat, if you were about the same level as it. Obviously at high levels I don't need to use my brain to kill a rat.

Hey, that's a really good point. We seem to have focused on the landscape more than its 'monster' inhabitants in this thread.

You're right about Oblivion's monsters being fairly generic. Rats and wolves I was fine with since they're wilderness creatures you'd expect to find. But the minotaurs and ogres always made me groan. At least the trolls looked kind of cool, and different to traditional designs, but the minotaurs felt too generic to me. Unique creatures, hopefully designed by a great artist who can add some distinctive flair to the series' monsters, could really add a lot to Skyrim's overall feel, especially if they also have their own unique AI and combat styles to really add a sense of belief to a monster, as though it really 'lives' in this world rather than being placed there just to get in your character's way and help raise that blade skill a few more levels.

We've mentioned witches a few times earlier on, and they're one of the 'monster' aspects I have high hopes for. Hopefully they aren't overused like the bandits and marauders of Oblivion, and are presented as rare and powerful sorceresses, residing in the most inhospitable reaches of the province, wielding magic destructive enough to destroy small scouting armies instantaneously, and illusion magic so naturally that they seem to vanish and move amongst snow storms. A deadly adversary for the greenhorn adventurer, but a worthy foe with rare and magical trinkets to dispossess for the seasoned hero.

Sorry about the gargantuan bump, I was thinking about these really general points a couple of weeks ago, but I've been away in Scotland and haven't long been back. Och aye the noo, whatever that means. I haven't read through all of this topic, so apologies if anything I've written has already been discussed.

Overall I think there needs to be a logical balance between the alien and the familiar.

If blatant 'alieness' (can't think of a better word) is near constantly being shoved in your face then much of the potential mystery, wonder, and atmosphere is lost imo, as everything is relative. Everything should not be overly alien- how alien something is should depend on it's meaning and purpose within the gameworld. For example, if the devs intend something to feel mysterious or hellish then they could give it an overall alien feel (such as Lothlorien or Mordor in LotR), or if they intend something to feel homely they could give it familiar aspects (such as the shire in LotR)
In TES, things such as daedric realms, dream realms, skooma trips and what not, should feel more alien to contrast with 'regular' things.
Another point is that alieness shouldn't be used at the loss of believability, unless the alien thing is the work of magic such as a daedric realm (Magic should be the only excuse for unbelievability, unless the said thing is meant to be kept mysterious)

Too much familiarity can be bad as well as Oblivion shows. The Crusaders of the Nine (I think that's what they're called) were too bloody similar to the real life medieval crusaders- right down too the appearance of their armour. Their helmets even had the same Christian cross design- Christianity doesn't even exist in the TES universe, so that broke immersion for me.
Plus nearly every screenshot of oblivion could be mistaken for a 3d rendering of a (although slightly fanciful) scene from medieval Western Europe. Influences from real life should be a bit more subtle, although I’d like to see some strong allegoric or non-literal influences from real the real world.

That aside, I do agree that the next game should have an overall more alien feel than Oblivion.

Also, I don't see why some people think Skyrim won't be unique- anything no matter what it is initially based on has the potential to be unique and alien, it's just down to the imagination of the lore writers and concept artists really.

Ugh that was a messy piece of writing. I admit I’ve used the word 'alien' a tad too much. :wacko:

Wait, I thought Skyrim was all in for wierdness and alien!
I mean... The Nords live there! :laugh:

Shivering isles were very alien and it was in TES IV only Cyridiil area in that game wasn't alien. Bethesda rushed the game too much and forgot the rainforest. But they still have the skill to make alien world so TES V will most likely be more alien than Oblivion but not as alien as Morrowind.