Mankar Camaron was arguably the real bad guy in Oblivion. Oblivions story/plot wasn't bad in my opinion, it's just the way it was told was like a childrens book. It did have lore behind it, in the form of a few books at Cloud Ruler Temple. A few changes in key scenes could have made it better.

In Skyrim, characters and story telling technique's a LOT of work for the main quest as a whole.

Duh. They dont need a good reason. They're the bad guys.

Dagoth Ur was kinda corrupted by his power. I do find it cliche kinda in morrowind that you after to get many groups to acknowledge you as the hero of them all. Dagoth Ur really seem to want outlanders out and good amount of the populace wanted that too but Dagoth ideals where a little too far though. But hey what can you do when you are corrupted.

looooooooooooooooool :rofl: :clap: :lmao:



Seriously though as stated even simplifying things for Morrowind you still get a sense that there is more to it.


In Oblivion, there isn't more to it, Dagon is being Dagon, some maniac is having delusions of grandure, and bad people are bad....thats it.

At least Shivering ilse gave you a what the **** of the century when you found out Sheo is Jygg and you essentially become an avatar of Sheo on top of that realising you just released a ****storm on the other Daedric Princes..but in my case I was glad

Or jygallag from SI the greyamarch that seems pretty similar.

:rolleyes:

Here we have, for the thousandth time, someone completely over simplifying EVERYTHING about Oblivion because it isn't Morrowind and because the lore was not shoved down their throat.


Give me a break. I don't even see how you thought this was right long enough to post it. Mankar Camoran. Mankar Camoran believed Mundus to be the realm of Lorkhan, which it kind of is, but he thought Lorkhan to be a brother of the Daedra. He ran the Mythic Dawn cult, who shared these beliefs, and had them open gates to Oblivion in order to bring Mehrunes Dagon into the Mundus to reclaim Tamriel for the Daedric Princes, whom he believed to be the rightful rulers of the realm.

It isn't Oblivion's fault that you just completely zoned out during Camoran's speech and that you didn't read/didn't understand the Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes.

He wants to destroy my things? Hahah. Sounds funny.

Depends on what you think is a decent reason. Look at the Joker in Dark Knight. All he wanted was to cause chaos.

I suggest getting rid of your nostalgia glasses and you will be fine. Hopefully your beer googles aren't as thick as your nostalgic ones.

According to the lore, Alduin wants to destroy the world because he is chained to it, and he wants to be free. That's a very interesting motivation. In fact, I daresay it sounds more interesting than Dagoth Ur's motivation (which wasn't that interesting - what was interesting about Dagoth Ur was how he spread the Blight to get a very intimidating combination of evil cult and zombie army.)

Just remember this time when you play Skyrim, keep asking "why?" Why does the bad guy want to destroy. Maybe then you'll find out. It's an open world RPG afterall, not some run and gun shooter. The answers will be there.

While I agree with Skyrim having sense (I hope!)... I must say that shooters normally have as well (Halo, Killzone...). Why so much hate towards shooters?

Well, I didn't mean all of them, only a lot that I've experienced. I haven't actually played those ones you mentioned. I won't mention specifics in case I hurt more people's feelings....

Nah, I understand, and you're right: some shooters, especially the old ones, have no story and no lore. It's just that sometimes, when people here talks about aspect of the game they consider bad, or lacking, it's compared with a shooter... and I just don't understand it; TES is great, but some FPS are very well done, and a lot of fun.

Anyway, sorry for the off topic. As I respect, I consider that everything that can be said about the actual topic has been said: people tend to extol Morrowind's story and to despise Oblivion's one.

I agree. But Oblivion could have made so many more efforts in making it more "deep".

Morrowind's main quest and lore was just incredible. Once you faced Dagoth Ur, you were amazed with the meaning of it and the journey you had gone to get there. There were so many things in Morrowind's main quest and lore that was just ... so great. At some times I understood Dagoth Ur and wanted to join him. I understood his reasons much better and they made sense (in a kind of insane way... lol). There was no real bad guy in Morrowind. Once you understood everything you realized that the bad guy could be someone else, depending on how you interpreted things yourself.
Morrowind's story was a thousands times more well-written than Oblivion's imo, and that's one of the things that makes me like Morrowind more than Oblivion.

I'm not a huge lore buff, but you are implying Mehrunes Dagon is a villain without lore behind him? Really?

Oh right, this is just another "i love MW and hate everything else" thread. Sorry for intruding, carry on....

I agree to an extent, I wouldn't say Morrowind's story was a thousand times more well-written, but I definitely prefer it to Oblivion's. Regardless, the point is that Mankar Camoran had a very good reason to do everything that he did, just as much as Dagoth Ur, despite what the OP says, and it was fun to find it all out too. I remember my eyes widening in horror as Mankar shouted through the caves "TAMRIEL AE DAEDROTH"

He was certainly wrong and mislead and probably quite insane, but he had a decent reason, he had a great reason. I understand his base idea, but it was fundamentally flawed. Dagoth Ur had his own problems as well.

Fallout 3 Actuality: Eugenics. The Enclave wanted to kill all the mutaited strains in the wasteland and reclaim the nation's capital as a tangible seat of power. I honestly found them a bit more sympathetic than I thought, they had somewhat noble goals on the surface.

Anyway, Yeah, Oblivion's antithesis wasn't as bad as you make it out to be. The cult wanted to ascent themselves to their paradaise, a paradise you actually get to visit "Giaur Allata" or w/e, but like so many things, it turned out to just be simple exploitation of mortal shells.

And of course, you have Morrowind, which is pretty much as described, except you forgot to mention the relationship between Dagoth Ur, the Naravarine, and the great Dunmer Houses, which is what really turned the conflict in that game from a superficial "Bad Guy V. Good Guy" to a real "Maybe he was wronged" debate.


How will Skyrim Pan out? SO far, it seems pretty straightforward. Alduin is cranky, wants to kill stuff. I do hope there's more to it than that, maybe it'll go into the lore behind the great Dragon-Cliff Racer War.

I loved the lore surrounding Mankar Camoran and the Mythic Dawn. Especially near the end when you learn more. But when Mankar mentioned the Daedric realms of some of the princes I was like, what? But you could take that as him being unbalanced or some such.

I've been wondering about whether there are any human, sorry i should say man or mer main bad guys in Skyrim, not connected with the civil war but the dragons. Another cult perhaps.

The reason Oblivion's story didnt seem to be as deep is because of the game play mechanics, especially the dialog function. In morrowind you could talk to almost everyone about a long laundry list of things, so at any point in time your could read about the houses, the neverene cult, the history etc. Thus it made it easier to understand the history and lore because you had access to the information at anytime you wanted. So if you didn't understand something about the history or the lore you could talk to someone and fill in the information gaps. In Oblivion if you didnt catch something someone said it was gone, well unless it was added in your quest log. Also the main quest in Oblivion was more action based as opposed to Morrowind where the main quest was learning about the history and lore itself.

They have a pretty decent motivation. They want to go home. Lorkhan tricked a lot of the aedra, who later became dragons, into making Nirn. Magnus and others busted out when they realized it, leaving the holes where the sun and stars are. Alduin and the dragons couldn't for some reason. My guess is that Alduin/Akatosh thinks he has to destroy the world in order to escape. The dragons aren't evil when you consider that much of their strength was drained to create a place that they never wanted to be part of. Wouldn't you be bitter?

You better be trollin' bruh.

In Oblivion it's said by Mankar Camoran that Nirn used to be one of the plains of Oblivion and that Mehrunes Dagon is simple taking it back. Whether or not this is true is up for debate but it's certainly something to think about. And even if his aim was simply destruction, he's one of 16 princes and his sphere just happens to be destruction and change.

In fallout 3 the Enclave wanted to take control of the water purifier because, you know... the fact the there are literally known zero clean bodies of water left after the atomic war. Having a machine that fixes this problem would be worth fighting for.

And if we are to believe The Seven Fights of Aldugagga, Mehrunes Dagon wants what every (save for dunmer) wants, to go back to the Dawn. With him, he wants to return to being the kind Leaper Devil King. But for that to happen, Mundus must be completely destroyed.

In fact, that's also plenty of mer's motivation for wanting the world to end, they too want to return to the way things were pre-Mundus. Why? Well, they're conceited [censored] to put to bluntly. To the mer (save for dunmer), they believed they used to be gods, and totally awesome. However, Lorkhan just had to come and [censored] it all up (to them). The dwemer believed this too, but wanted to ignore the whole "remove Mundus" bit and wanted to go even further back. Back to when everything started. Back to the first stroke of Padomay and Anu. So, they made a giant brass golem that would absorb the entire race and use Shor/Shezarr/Lorkhan's heart as the power source. However, it's failure is still up in question. The Numidium does appear at all points in time, but we have yet to know if it made its trip to the first moment.

Well, you're half right.

Morrowind's "close friends torn apart by betrayal and desire for power" story made their motivations more relateable I think. Mehrunes Dagon is a true god who never lived as a human, so it's makes sense that he would be harder to comprehend.

Camoran though, has the "Nirn is really a Daedric realm" belief but I'm not sure what the personal connection is between him and that; that would make him become a fanatic and blow up the world over it. The Seven Fights makes it possible to empathize with Dagon, but Camoran is still mostly an enigma, which is an interesting role reversal.

I think best part about Oblivion's story was what you said. That Tamriel was actually some Daedric realm, and that it was going to be reclaimed and "restored". That was pretty good. But what I disliked the most about Oblivion's story was the Mythic Dawn.

Compare the Sixth House to Mythic Dawn
The Sixth House wins by far of being a cult... it was really awesome. Such atmosphere and feeling to it. Creepy and insane, yet cool at the same time. Mythic Dawn felt kind of bland to me and I never got excited or interested of it. So in all honesty, Mythic Dawn was what I disliked the most about Oblivion and one of the reasons it felt more bland than deep, imo.

Oblivion's story had great potential. The thing about a slowly crumbling empire that is facing one of its greatest threats ever, with hordes of demons spawning through gates of destruction, and the chaos of an emperor's death and the finding of his forgotten heir. It was a great start, but could have been better, I think... Mythic Dawn ruined it for me

His ideas do make sense, if one can sort it out. The problem is, it's kinda jumbled. He believes Mundus is the daedric realm of Lorkhan, but was betrayed by the aedra, but it's MD's...

If you ask me, he throws in a compilation of mannish and 7FoA ideas, with mer philosophy. It's a weird marriage of ideas right there, and it looks like it almost fits, but not quite.