Ends justify the means. After Hoover Dam, that's the reason Legion's my #2 and was #1 for a while.

But the ends are people enslaved, the ruler is a crazed man with a god-complex, and people will turn on eachother to survive......

Not a world I would want to live in.....

What? The ends is that civilization comes into the wasteland as an unforgiving yet meritocratic and "survival of the fittest" style Empire.

The Legion is already a civilization for starters and arguably so is New Vegas. Plus simply because the Legion is a civilization doesn't mean life is good or enjoyable, for civilization is a standard of living neutral term.

Or civilization can come to the Mojave through House or the NCR where living would be much better.....

Legion civilization right now is tribal. Caesar sees Vegas as the Rome he wants. It has the technology (End-game content sees that Caesar utilizes the Securitrons to some degree) and the size. Caesar says that none of their cities begin to compare to Vegas.


NCR as a nation, I just despise. That's why I'm with Mr. House. House's Mojave is far better than any other Mojave simply because he doesn't have to deal with crap from a Congress that wants to fill their pockets rather than fill the stomachs of their citizens. That and House eliminates the one flaw of a dictatorship: A bad dictator.

House is a good dictator (even when he dies, he cares about humanity's progress. Curses you when you side with Legion or NCR) and he's going to live for another 200 or so years and by that time, he'll probably have created another way to make either the Courier or himself take over again.

EDIT: All this not taking into account that House can reignite high tech sectors of the Mojave in ten or twenty years. By then, the Mojave would be a better place to live than even Pre-War standards.

This is a common misconception. J.E. Sawyer (project director) confirmed a while back that Yes Man's personality update is merely a measure to ensure no one else can waltz in and take control a la the Courier. Yes Man WON'T go all SkyNet on us. And because he's programmed to only take orders from the Courier, if the Courier was fair and kind-hearted, then Yes Man would rule in a manner which reflects that. It seems illogical that the Courier wouldn't regularly stop by and check how things are running in Vegas, as Yes Man cannot arbitrarily pass decrees without the Courier's word. There's no reason for Vegas to be ruled as a tyranny

All due respect, but this is all a bit contradictory. You say judge morality on actions, but House is responsible for slaughtering the Kings and destroying an entire chapter of the Brotherhood of Steel. I agree with House on these matters, but from a moral standpoint, his approach is questionable. If you're all about the 'ends justifying the means', then surely you'd assign moral labels based on the conseqeuences rather than the actions themselves? To me, House is VERY gray, though does provide the brightest future.

I've already explained in detail why I support House, so if you want to know me reasoning, go back a few posts. Good that we're on the same side here

That's a fair assessment of the NCR, I think. Thing is, the NCR isn't a single entity. They can't really be pinpointed, either. While the government sees the Mojave as a veritable treasure trove of resources (and I agree that the campaign is primarily concerned with land and resource acquisition), NCR citizens and soldiers may think otherwise. Some are clearly anti-war (evident in Hanlon being elected senator for Redding), others genuinely believe in the cause, spreading democracy and all that. Tranquillius (a member here) taught me in another thread that there's an element of idealism in the NCR's goals, not necessarily altruism. The NCR is tied with Indie in my order of preference.

Plus, the NCR is only overstretched due to the Legion's presence in the region. The NCR is keeping the Legion at bay. House cannot defend Vegas alone. Not before the dam battle, at least. As you're so vehemently opposed to the Legion, how can you consider the NCR to be endangering the Mojave?

Decimation is not an act of amusemant (though Lanius may find some sick pleasure); it works to strengthen the Legion by inducing fear in its soldiers for their commander. Ergo, they will fight relentlessly, as they're more afraid of the man behind them than the enemy. Tightens the bonds. Same principle of 'ends justifying the means', a maxim you claim to adhere to. And remember, such methods allowed Caesar to conquer the pacify the lands east of the Colorado. The Legion was the East's salvation, and it is difficult to refute that. As I've said before, Caesar could not take the West, and even if he did, holding it would kill his Legion. Still, even though it's easy to view the Legion as reprehensible from a modern western perspective, our standards no not apply to the East. Caesar's achievements cannot be denied.

And to be clear, Caesar doesn't have a god-complex. The whole 'descendent of Mars' does appear a bit of a farce on the face of it, but it serves a purpose. It allows the Legion to commit to a power, an ideal, higher than themselves. In theory, anyway. It's hard to change human nature, unless one takes the most extreme possibl measures to do so, like Elijah with his collars. Caesar doesn't really think he's a god.

Ah, okay. My bad, just the way Yes-Man played it off made me assume that was how it would play out. Thanks for the info!



I haven't done any ending in a few months, playing on non-courier characters, but I don't remember having to kill the Kings and I'm looking on the wiki under the House Always Wins and it isn't saying anything about killing the Kings. The Brotherhood, however, are not a friendly group. They hoard tech, refuse to give it to anyone, and contribute nothing to society....They're-They're RIDICULOUS! I do like the Eastern branch A LOT, haha!



Because, they are willing to kill House and put their weak grasp over the Mojave. I think the Legion will return for the Mojave eventually, perhaps sooner than later, and the NCR will still be too weak to fight them off. They Legion would be wise to wait until the NCR is expanding into a new area.

House, however, will have spent hardly anything in the previous battles, most likely growing stronger!


I said I was a light believer in it. I believe it has a bit of truth to it, but not to the extent of slaughtering your own men, enslaving countless people, and torturing/killing anyone who defies/fails you all so that there can be "peace" and "civil"ization in the Mojave......

Plus the end doesn't sound very pleasant.....


You're probably right on that. I just hate the Legion and let that get the better of me sometimes

Love and Peace!

Can someone explain exactly what House intends to do upon victory. I can't remember any specifics in my conversations with him and the wiki is pretty vague. He maintains Vegas' "independence" and sets himself up as a sort of benevolent dictator. Then what? Or is that it?

He plans to restore the Old World Economy and have quick Technological progress. With the money he gains from Vegas, he'll bring back a pre-war standard of living, and eventually spread his little "economical empire" across the Mojave. But for now, the Mojave would remain independent.

He wants to make Vegas the forge to create new technology for the betterment of humanity. From House's words, "Give me 20 years and I'll reignite the high technology sectors. 50 years and I'll have people in orbit. 100 years and my colony ships will be searching the stars for a planet unpolluted by the folly of a dead generation."

Of course paraphrased.

His plan on Earth is simple: Milk the NCR for money to do this plan and make the Mojave a sovereign nation. Personally, I want to see him expand eastwards but I don't see that happening.

So, he'll fund a utopia through his gambling empire? Doesn't this require preying off of other people's work and earnings? I mean, with taxes you generally know what you're getting, and in a democracy you have some degree of say in how those funds are spent. But House seems to have relatively arbitrary values judging by some of the ending slides. He seems to mostly take a non-interference position, but sometimes changes his mind. His stance on the Kings and Primm, for example, varies pretty wildly based on their dealings with the NCR. Most other minor factions he simply ignores and/or spies on without taking any active measures. It just seems a little arbitrary.

I guess I'm just not sure what House offers that Independence doesn't. Unless you're certain House can offer better conditions for the people of the Mojave than the courier---and there doesn't seem to be much evidence for this beyond some lofty promises---why take the chance on him instead of your own character? I mean, even in a House victory, the courier seems to have a great deal of influence over how future events unfold. One ending even describes House as being fearful of the Courier, providing him a life of luxury mostly as a means of avoiding confrontation.

I sure as hell wouldn't trust my characters to run New Vegas. A couple of them are heartless bastards.

If I have a Courier as brilliant and cunning as Mr. House? Sure, maybe. But I have yet to make such a character.

his early economy will be based on gambling, tourism and exporting water and electricity to the NCR for a while but eventually once House has started creating new technologies he'll sell those to the NCR.

In history i've studied early and mid 20th century British history, in particular social reforms and the creation of the welfare state, most of the reforms put through in these periods such as the NHS, nationalization etc increased productivity and happiness. House will know these things and better than that he'll be able to implement better forms of them due to his algorithms. So he'll look after the people because to do so would benefit him.

Also remember House is never unnecessarily aggressive towards a factions. he's the only faction that doesn't attack the boomers if you don't get them to fight for him.

You also have to remember that House created Robco after being cheated out of his inheritance. The man created the most powerful robotics and computer company from scratch with nothing. he can deliver what he promises

Presumably a heartless bastard would still want to be in a position where they hold all the cards, however.
This is what I mean. These are all nebulous and poorly defined goals. His algorithms? What are they? What benefits is House looking for? He doesn't help out the follower or Freeside and they're right next door. So it would seem he's using some other metric than something as straightforward as "help your neighbor". What is he waiting for? He's one of, if not the, richest single individual in the wastes, and yet all he's done so far is rebuild the Vegas strip and then sit on it. Then he talks about this vague future, but none of the ending slides really suggest any significant change. Why trust this man who talks the talk, but won't walk the walk?
House is unnecessarily aggressive toward Primm and the Kings for any reasonable definition of aggression. Neither of those directly opposed house. One sought stability through law enforcement, the other sought aid and peace in Freeside. House was providing neither, and in most endings won't provide much support anyways.
I'm, not saying he isn't intelligent and ambitious. But those qualities don't directly translate into just ruler.

Not if he/she isn't a power-monger.

Regardless, the point being that those types of Couriers are generally not going to be better than Mr. House.


Quite an understatement there.

It's not so much that they need to desire power, more that they recognize other powerful players are a potential threat to them.

I was coming at it more from a "Why would any in-game character support House?" rather than "Is House a better solution than some player characters?"
How so?

The same one which helped predict the war to within a day


Fear of the NCR stopped him from helping freeside. If he sent money to the kings it would be seen by the NCR as an attempt to build up strength to attack them which would be all the excuse they would need to bring in extra men to take out Mr. House. It took a lot to get enough power to be able to hold just the strip


NCR will angry at House for his actions and would seek a way to get to Mr. House for kicking them out the Mojave. Primm is on the NCR's doorstep and is thus a highly strategic place to hold influence. Freeside is on Mr. House's doorstep and is thus also a highly strategic place to hold influence. my guess is that House will take the same approach with the towns and factions as he does with the three families i.e. monitor them, stop them from fighting each other or being attacked but otherwise let them deal with their own issues

EDIT: Plus remember that House doesn't move into freeside with the express purpose of killing the kings, he asks them to get out of freeside, they refuse and attack his securitrons, they get wiped out


He'll be intelligent enough to know the fate of all the other dictators who tried to keep the populace under their thumb through fear and he'll be ambitious enough to prevent foreign powers from becoming to strong to deal with

Because you are essentially playing off his work thus-far as nothing. When he has made incredible progress by the standards of the Fallout universe (consider that Lyon's BoS was in DC for 20 years and still hasn't found Vault 87).

"Oh you know, he's only begun the resurrection of a pre-war city and created what is widely recognized as the jewel of the wasteland...that's all."

In seven years he has:

1. Completely restored part of the Strip to its former pre-war glory and created a booming tourist economy in the depths of the Mojave wasteland.

2. Civilized and completely transformed three barbaric tribes and formed them into a group of Casino owners (sure there is some snags, but its respectable regardless.)

3. Successfully held off and diplomatically outmaneuvered the NCR in order to keep ownership of the Strip. All the while working behind the scenes and raking in the profits from the NCR citizenry.

And if New Vegas is completed in his favor he will have:

4. Thwarted the ambitions of two of the most powerful factions in the fallout universe.

5. Gained sole control of New Vegas, Hoover Dam, and much of the Mojave and created the foundations for a growing and powerful state protected by his army of securitrons.

My concern is not that his calculations are wrong, but that they are looking for the wrong answer.
Why would he give money to the Kings? That's simply introducing unnecessary middlemen. The Kings are a gang, they may keep people in line, but they hardly constitute an effective relief effort---or at least, a far less effective relief effort than someone with House's means could afford. You'll notice that after House kicks the NCR out of the Mojave, Freeside is actually worse off, struggling under the strain of an independent Vegas.

I'm also not sure why the NCR would suddenly openly attack House were he to fund the development of a zone right next door. It's not exactly encroaching onto NCR territory, and there wouldn't seem to be any antagonism implied. The NCR wants House out of the picture because they want Vegas. The reason they haven't taken him out already is because he has an effective Securitron army and they're currently dealing with the Legion, not because he decided not to incorporate Freeside.
He doesn't just monitor these factions. He kills the Kings to the last man, and imposes heavy taxes on Primm. The difference being, when the NCR taxes Primm, they also bring in a wealth of trade. House's rule doesn't have this side benefit. And if those factions do not associate with the NCR he ignores them, so it isn't as if he's incorporating them as a defensive maneuver. In the scenarios we see, he either exacts revenge for association with the NCR or he's apathetic.
Again, intelligence and ethics are not the same. You've no evidence that House will institute just policies, only the promise of a brighter future. So far, he's produced nothing to suggest this brighter tomorrow will ever exist. Why trust that he will at some vague future date?

Only if you choose the idiot solution and side the kings with the NCR (House's hinted enemy) and have the NCR govern Primm.

I'm sure you haven't finished a playthrough of him, so don't state the absolute worst endings you can get from House. He leaves both alone so-long as you don't ally them with the NCR, the faction he's trying to push OUT of the Mojave.

How are they idiot solutions? They work out rather well so long as you don't side with a non-NCR faction. But this wasn't the point I was making. I was showing that House is just as petty as anyone else, so suggestions that he is somehow higher minded would seem inaccurate.

I'm not singling out bad endings, I'm talking about all endings. All endings either involve House staying out of everybody's business or House acting as the aggressor.


1. Yes, I already said he restored the Strip. What he has done for the Mojave lately?

2. This is effectively the same thing as restoring the strip. It's fundamental to that plan and as such, I don't really consider this a second point in favor. Still, the tribes aren't fully civilized with one of them actively seeking to assault the strip and overthrow House. Success here is ultimately determined by the Courier.

3. I don't see how this applies. I'm talking about what House has done for the Mojave, not whether he's good at making caps.

4. Success once again ultimately dependent on the Courier. It's also something that happens at the end of the game, I'm looking for evidence as to what he's done in the meanwhile.

5. This is the same as point 4, and the same argument applies. Being as every faction creates the foundation for a growing and powerful state protected by their respective militaries, I'm don't see this giving House a point over anyone else.

1. They're looking for how to better Vegas' economy and power. House's interests align with the interests of Vegas because it's House's forge to push his ideas of creating an economic nation.

2. Freeside is screwed in all endings. Unless you perfectly align yourself with NCR and do everything perfectly. Heck, unless the Followers pledge allegiance to NCR, they "encourage" (which probably means tax heavily and pay the local mafia to harass them) the Followers to leave. Besides, it's a small price to pay.

3. Because NCR will do anything it takes to take Vegas. While the Legion is pressuring NCR, if House starts to build up Freeside, NCR WILL take that as a threat because to NCR, it is a threat. House is moving into Freeside which means he's building his influence. It'll be harder in the long run if NCR lets that happen. If House develops Freeside, NCR will kill House, whether literally or financially.

4. To House, NCR is an enemy. Not an enemy as in, "I'll murder the NCR" enemy but as a man with a gun would see a tiger. A potential threat but also a benefit if handled properly. NCR influence in his nation isn't beneficial at all. NCR money is, NCR citizens who blow their money is, but not NCR influence.

5. Let's see. In less than a decade he restarted Vegas, negotiated a treaty with NCR, restarted all three casinos, and managed Vegas very well. All without the Platinum Chip.

Seven years of rebuilding is lately. And again, you are completely ignoring how significant an achievement like this is.

What has the CWBOS done for the Capital Wasteland in 20 years? Jack [censored] squat.


Its part of his achievements. Outwitting and out maneuvering the NCR's massive military and not allowing it to capture the Mojave is a damned impressive achievement. Not only this, but he's using his adversary against themselves in the process by harnessing the NCR to expand his economy. As far as stratagems go, its absolutely brilliant. He's denying his opponent and reaping vast rewards from them at the same time.

Also he's been focusing his attention on the Strip, not the Mojave as a whole. His plan is to start relatively small and in a contained section, secure his position, and then begin expansion.


Success for every faction is dependent on the Couriers actions. What's your point?


House's state, based upon what I have seen, has the capacity to outshine all others.

In seven years time he's rebuilt a section of Vegas to pre-war glory, all while overcoming tremendous adversity.

Think what he could do with ten more years of complete peace.

Again, no. You are singling out bad endings. The only "bad" ending that can possibly come from a good House play-through is the destruction of the Brotherhood, and it's a given that you need to kill them if you aren't with NCR. He leaves just about everyone else alone.

You ask how House in control of the Strip is better than that of the Courier? Off the top of my head, here are a few.
1. The Courier doesn't have House's vision. 9-out-of-10 Couriers would fill the power vacuum and prove to not be as benevolent as House. The Courier isn't a politician. The Courier is a Courier.
2. The Courier will only live for forty-or-so more years at the maximum.
3. The Courier doesn't have the same plans for the Mojave as House, and wouldn't be able to pull them off. Just like Mr. House doesn't have the same plans for the Mojave as the Courier, although he isn't limited by age because you can assume that he will live at least for a few more centuries.

What has House done in the meanwhile? Wait, and run the Vegas Strip. That's all he can do, considering that his army consists of a few dozen MK I Securitrons, which is not near large enough to even place a dent into Legion or NCR. And for Andronicus' third point, it is relevant. He's been keeping the NCR from annexing Vegas by doing-so, and at the same time, permitting them to peacefully occupy Hoover Dam. Of course he's trying to make caps. How would Economic and Technological progress come to place if he has no caps? You should know that.

What have the NCR done in the Mojave?
NCR:
-A nation that is running out of resources, content on placing their stake into the Mojave to either ship their resources back to California, or lose.
-They took Hoover Dam seven years ago, and have been content on spreading their army so thin that they cannot keep the Mojave safe.
-According to Hanlon, they haven't been able to get their Heavy Troopers until near the end of the quest-line, because of their damn Brahmin Barons. What the hell do Brahmin Barons have to do with an entire platoon of Heavy Troopers?

Not to mention, why the hell did this thread turn into an Indy Vs. House thread when this thread very clearly states "Mr. House or the Legion"?