I want to point out while House's accomplishments are impressive thus far like a house of cards it will fall. To start off with the NCR will already have an animosity towards the Mojave and House for taking the Hoover Dam, but of course with the fall of Kimball and Oliver and the rise of Hanlon (and presumably) Hsu in NCR politics and institutions the nation will stay out of war with House..for now. But let's reexamine the situation. Hanlon clearly says most citizens from Boneyard for instance have never been to New Vegas and probably never will. Now the distance between L.A. and Vegas is 265 miles. So we can assume most NCR citizens outside of a 200 mile radius of Vegas probably won't be making the journey. And why would they anyway? I mean think about what Vegas really is. It's 3 [censored]houses and casinos that are air conditioned and you need 2000 caps to enter and takes an extreme journey to the edge of civilization to get to.

Most of the NCR citizens on the Strip are Barons and Troopers. Now the Troopers will be gone with Free Economic Zone of Vegas leaving only really the extremely rich of the NCR visiting the city. With all the hate from Freeside towards NCR citizens anyway very few average people would probably make the journey. So we are left with a distant, hostile, enclave for the rich founded by a man that stole the Hoover Dam from most of the patrons home nation. Now add onto that the NCR has places like New Vegas, for instance New Reno, and really by this point [censored]s and drugs can be found much easier probably if only behind the curtain more so than Vegas back in the NCR.

But then you all say, but the NCR won't fight Vegas because House controls the Hoover Dam. And see that ignores the fact that House will be raising the rate for usage for the Dam, usage is only going to grow in California because they're running out of water and ranching is water intensive AND the population is increasing so to will the need for electricity and water. In the agreement House signs with the NCR he notes he can change rates at anytime. How long do you all really think it's going to be until the NCR Senate rolls back into the Mojave after rates have been jacked up to 20 caps per kilowatt hour? It's not going to happen now with the war wariness, but in a medium to longer amount of time it's very likely an imperialist will retake power, it's not as if the Brahmin Barons that supported Kimball will have suddenly gone away...

Then lastly I can see some of you saying now; but House's Securitron army is to strong..well not really. One of House's upgraded Securitrons is equal to an BoS Paladin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NoXbMdLZKQ&feature=plcp

In fact a BoS Paladin with a top shelf weapons would generally kill one of House's Securitrons. I bring this up because the Veteran Rangers can generally kill a BoS Paladin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N3sEfokID0

Moreover a Quasi NCR trooper would probably have the same effect. Furthermore one of the characters in game noted that 10 NCR troopers can kill a Paladin or that's about the kill ratio. So we can assume it would take about that many troopers to bring down one of House's robots. Now Hanlon during Return to Sender states the NCR loses about 1000 troopers per year and that the NCR senate has funds tied up so what we see isn't even the full force of the NCR army. More important than that the Divide wiped out full divisions of the NCR military. At the Ranger safehouse you are sometimes issued energy cells and at the Divide you even fight an NCR Power Armored Solider. Not to mention all the Gun Runners weapons and all the weapons in the GRA arsenal DLC are from California. That all said given 7 to 10 years of reorganization the NCR could EASILY bring down House's Vegas. Hell they could do it today if the political support was there.

The NCR would have to sacrifice a large proportion of their army to do such a thing, and that's considering that they actually want to go to war with House. And they won't if you spare Kimball.

Lore isn't based off AI.

Exactly. This point needs to be emphasized.

The NCR would have to sacrifice about the same proportion of their army they do on a yearly basis according to Hanlon's own words. The NCR's top shelf troops with anti-robotics weapons (weapons we know the NCR can obtain) or just top shelf weapons of the kind in the GRA DLC are good enough in a fight against House's robots, let alone whatever kind of REAL Power Armored Units the NCR has. If the NCR has been (presumably) winning the NCR-BoS war back in California and the Mojave campaign is only a small portion of their military (which it is) then in a full out conflict House wouldn't stand a chance.

Also in the short term no the NCR won't be attacking House because of the nations war wariness, but once that electricity and water bill starts coming into the Senate on a bi-weekly basis you best believe they will. Especially since taxes will have to be raised to deal with usage, taxes being one of the reasons NCR citizens wanted out of the war in the first place. Sure for the first or maybe second election cycle wariness will keep them out but it's not as if the politics in the NCR won't change, especially against the reality of rising water cost.

As far as the A.I Strength vs. Lore goes, I'm simply using in game data to back up that the Securitrons are not invincible from attack or destruction and that to defeat one would be about as hard for the NCR as it is to kill a Paladin.

Firstly, NPC wars isn't a good source. Lore isn't defined by who can kill who in game. If that's true, the Legion wouldn't be a threat against NCR.

NCR is already a failing nation. They can't afford to fight House's robots since House's robots are impossible to win against, given the NCR's current situation. They have to buy from House, at least in terms of water and electricity. And NCR civilians, or civilians of any nation, throughout history care more about their own pleasure than an embargo enacted by their nation.

Besides, even troopers can technically go to the Strip as civilians. They just can't go there wearing NCR trooper armor and do trooper duties.

I'm not saying an entire securitron can destroy Hidden Valley on its own. I'm saying that a securitron is more than capable of killing a Brotherhood Paladin considering it has advanced weaponry and an auto-repair system, so basing this off AI is still not a good idea.

Not to mention, the print-out that you hand to Oliver states that House is going to ransom power from Hoover Dam, which definitely is some incentive not to attack the Mojave.

NPC Wars is a great source for lore because ultimately one group IS stronger than the other. One solider is a better fighter than another one lore wise which tells us a lot about the strength of different factions. Also your Legion anagoly doesn't hold up since Veteran Rangers and Heavy Troopers make up a small number of the forces at Hoover Dam AND are improperly used and placed.

The NCR isn't failing, besides that you act as if the Hoover Dam is the only source of electricity for Southern California. A large percentage today comes from Northern California and Oregon, both places the NCR already owns. The lakes and aquafiers Hanlon was referring to are in SoCal which is a desert so it's not surprising the water has run dry. Further it's not as if fission battery's don't still exist (which still power towns in the Mojave) the NCR has the know how to run any solar plants remaining in it's lands, and considering there is no industrialization it's not as if no electricity for Joe Farmer is really going to hurt them. So the NCR would be able to temporarly off set the loss of Hoover Dam's power during a military campaign to retake it. Just 5 years ago they didn't even hold the damn thing. No the thing that will hurt them is the water and power bill coming into the Senate bi-weekly that will lead to an increase in taxes which IS a reduction in people's pleasure.

Also yes NCR troopers as citizens can enter the Strip, but why would they after all the NCR military is pulled out the Mojave? Rememeber Hanlon's 200 miles comment referring to NCR citizens? That applies to trooper to. The only reason they even go to Vegas is because it's close by WHILE they're posted in the Mojave. After the NCR pullout the only customers will be the rich.

Yes a Securitron is capable of killing a Paladin. 50 percent of the time they do in the NPC war videos. But a Paladin, being a walking tank with top shelf energy weapons (which are also quite advanced) can also kill a Securitron. Also it's not as if an auto-repair system is 100 percent effective or immediate much like stimpaks for humans, so really the argument holds. It would be roughly the same level of difficulty for the NCR to kill a Securitron as it is to kill a Paladin.

Also the Order of Withdraw says nothing about House holding the Dam as ransom nor does it prohibit against an NCR trade embargo.
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Order_of_Withdrawal

1. NO! NPC Wars is a terrible source because it's based nothing off of lore and simply off of gameplay. Gameplay doesn't follow lore for the sake of balance. We're talking about lore here and in lore, what you're saying is wrong.

2. What about water? Hanlon states that all of the NCR lakes are run dry and do you know how hard it is to purify saltwater on a large scale? Especially if the saltwater is most likely irradiated beyond all recognition?

3. House states that the tourists will come flooding back and everything he's said so far is all based on numbers and those numbers are the very same numbers that predicted the Great War. Not to mention that not all NCR troopers are poor you know. In any case, House will probably arrange something to milk the NCR even further.

4. "So long as NCR military personnel comply with this order to withdraw, electricity and water will continue to flow from Hoover Dam to the NCR.

a) Electricity: 5 caps per kilowatt hour.

Water: 5 caps per gallon"

It's not held for ransom. It's a business deal.

For the last time. No, it's not.

"So long as NCR military personnel comply with this order to withdraw, electricity and water will continue to flow from Hoover Dam to the NCR.

a) Electricity: 5 caps per kilowatt hour.

Water: 5 caps per gallon"

Say-what about not ransoming power from the dam?

House was conscious for more than thirty years before he decided to start building up the Strip. The Strip itself was apparently constructed very quickly, much more quickly than seven years. House sent out his Securitrons in '74, united the Three Houses, rebuilt Vegas, and met with the NCR to sign the New Vegas Treaty all within that year. We know this because part of the Treaty allowed for the NCR to use MacCarren Airport, a camp that the NCR finished in '75. House sat around again, waiting for the Platinum Chip, for another six years. All the while he could have been doing something to better the conditions of Mojave. It's not as though he's strapped for cash.

What does the Brotherhood of Steel have to do with anything? I'm talking about House---and independence as it's effectively the same goal---specifically, not the accomplishments of some other unrelated faction.
I'm not denying House's effectiveness. We know he is incredibly ambitious and very capable. I'm contending that the goals he is very capable of achieving are not necessarily in the best interests of the Mojave.
And yet he doesn't do this. None of the ending slides imply expansion. His 40 plus years of inactivity are evidence of almost total detachment. Again, where is the evidence beyond is unfulfilled promises?
My point is you can't judge the effectiveness of a faction based on the Courier. We know the Legion is effective because they pacified the East. We know the NCR is effective because they've built a thriving democracy in the West. We know House is effective because he rebuilt the Strip and tamed the local tribes. But effectiveness in these categories doesn't automatically mean that any given faction has the real interests of the Mojave in mind. We have to look at how the behave toward the Mojave and the effects of their respective endings to determine that.

Based on what House has done and does do should he win, it doesn't seem like he has any strong compulsion to better the lives of ordinary people.
Being as he was awake for half a century and all he did was spend a minority of his time building a handful of casinos, I wouldn't be too hopeful. House if he's really interested in helping other people, takes his damn sweet time. Meanwhile, real people are dying and suffering. He is willingly allowing these problems to continue when it's within the scope of his power to not only end the existing strife, but greatly improve the situation of everyone. Why he leans toward inaction? I have no idea. He seems to be more of an absent dictator than a benevolent one. I'd say the Omerta's nickname for him is pretty apt.
I don't know what you're talking about. I've never mentioned the Brotherhood of Steel, I've specifically been talking about the ending slides for Primm and the Kings/Freeside. In those endings, assuming a House Victory, there are two possible outcomes: House ignores them or House exacts revenge for their dealings with the NCR. I'm not arguing whether anything is bad or not, I'm disputing the claim that House's grand plan is as benevolent as some people are making it out to be. What we see in most House endings is inaction or vindictiveness. This means House is either useless or an active problem for these people.
This is speculation based on what exactly? Where is your evidence beyond House's lofty claims?
He has money, he can pay to improve the Mojave. He paid some 800 thousand caps---assuming I'm remembering correctly---to recover the chip. It wasn't recovered by Securitrons, it was recovered by scavengers. The Three Houses are his employees/tenants, as well. I'm not seeing a compelling reason for his inaction and general unresponsiveness to the problems plaguing outer Vegas.

And House only has a few dozen Securitrons? I don't think that's true, he seems to have a near unlimited supply. At least, I've killed plenty in a single game. If House only had a few dozen Securitrons, how would that possibly dissuade the NCR from successfully capturing the strip? That kind of defense would be nothing.
Because the Legion is so fundamentally terrible that the answer is self evident. Also, because any discussion of endings is likely to include information gleaned by all of them. That's likely why you brought up the NCR's effect on the region despite the NCR's success/effectiveness/downsides not being a function of my argument.

Then I don't see the point in you posting on this thread. I brought up the NCR because you said Mr. House hasn't done anything recently in the Mojave.

Not to mention that opinion is incredibly biased.

EDIT: I'm out for a few hours.

Discussions evolve, trying to unnaturally contain them does a disservice to discourse. More on point, if we want to discuss the merits of a House ending, we need to truly understand what a House ending entails. What I'm see here is a lot of speculation without much evidence. Wishful thinking is fine, but does not make for a compelling argument.

Mr. House has saved Las Vegas from nukes so I think he can end the NCR if he wanted to.

To add to this, NPC wars is just for entertainemnt but not a good source for lore.

But remember, thats the only source of income for House. Nuke NCR in Lonesome Road, Mr House is screwed, and will have to most likely raise taxes which will cause a revolt with the people of the Mojave. The only nearest one would be the Legion if they did not nuke them and they probably changed but that is highly unlikely. If NCR was nuked, the only closes trade partner he would have will be with the Khan Empire if the Khans retreated to Wyoming yet thats still alot of ground to cover.

How Mr. House could end NCR or stop them.

95% of the energy of Hoover dam go's to NCR so House could stop that.
Clean water from hoover dam go's to NCR so he could stop that.
He designed an array of high powered laser cannons, which he had installed on the roof of the Lucky 38, to deal with any missile his program had missed to stop the nukes from hiting Las Vegas so you know get that working and boom to NCR.
An Army of robots.
He owns Robco so he might be able to hack in to most of the computers in NCR and etc...
Mr. House would have most the Mojave backing him.

Need I say more?

I'm just going to be randomly picking points and arguing them since its 2am here and i can't be bothered

1. Securitrons vs BOS and NCR. whether or not one securitron is better than one paladin or one NCR ranger is irrelevant they're not going to be fighting one on one duels of honour. when one NCR veteran Ranger or BOS paladin dies that's what 20-30 years of experience gone in an instant. one securitron dies all its info is uploaded back to the database for other securitrons to use. securitrons will also be far more coordinated. also the issue of total war, House can fight 24/7 with 100% of his forces, the paladin and rangers have to eat, sleep, drink and do all the other things humans have to do.

2. House couldn't do anything in the 30 years he was active before the NCR came because he didn't have the electricity to do it, he needed an organized society capable of mending the dam and supplying him with electricity before he could do much

3. gameplay=/= lore. The courier can carry rocket launchers, power armour, rifles, ammo, missiles in his pockets ingame but you try doing that in real life and then talk to your spine.

4. House states that Kimballs support rose drastically after water and electricity from Hoover dam went home, now why would this happen if the NCR already had enough water and electricity? this shows that the NCR doesn't have sufficient or reliable sources of water and electricityand that they need the water and electricity that House will sell to them

5. House has the few dozen securitrons and the three families, he has enough support that the NCR can't take the strip without leaving themselves vulnerable to a legion attack

True but am just useing that in case NCR wanted war with House.

1. I dont remember Securitorns data being uploaded back for another one to use but that reminds me of the Geth from Mass Effect.
4. Also gives a pretext of war for NCR to take over the Mojave.

On that we are completely agreed.


Hmm...yes. I'll give you that. According to the official timeline, he actually regained consciousness in 2138. Which is indeed a significant amount of time which is hard to account for. Although I would surmise that he was battling with staying conscious and his system not crashing after nearly being killed.

But you do have a point.


Fair enough.

I however, believe they are.


I suppose we'll have to wait and see what occured (assuming House's ending is chosen). But I still contend that his formation of the New Vegas Strip is evidence of his ability to achieve great things. Can I prove with 100% certainty that he will deliver on what he has promised? No, but I have trust in the man.

His pre-war record stands for itself as well.


He isn't interested in being a social worker, I think that much is clear. He is quite detached from say, the conditions of Freeside. Evidence of which is clear whenever his securitrons at the North Gate vaporize a Freesider attempting to make a break for the door.

He looks towards the bigger picture and the greater directives. Is it cold and calculating? Yes. Do still support him? Yes. But I support the Enclave, so I'm sure you can guess what my opinion is about helping every wastelander you can.




Ultimately my answer boils down to my faith in House's ability and his eventual goals (ie. an attempted return to the ways and standard of living of the pre-war world). And really I would say your argument boils down to skepticism of his ability and his ultimate goal. I can't really provide anything more than I have since I can't prove that House following the events of New Vegas is going to do what he says he is. I simply trust that he will and my trust is constructed on the basis of who he is and his actions with regards to the creation of the Strip.

House says he got telemetry readings from securitrons destroyed in Hidden Valley. Also House says that because Victor wasn't connected to the mainframe the securitron's own combat algorithms had to determine the course of actions, from the way he talked it sounded like that had he been connected to the mainframe he would of acted differently

capitalism my friend, if they find a better offer they're free to take it, but since they were so careless with resources it seems there isn't

1. Now it makes sense .

I'll respond to different arguments in general.


This one makes no sense in the context of our discussion of how hard it is to destroy a securitron since obviously they aren't invisible. That said comparing NPC stats gives us a measure of how strong the securitrons truly are. Now within the context of the NCR attacking House I'm simply saying this. A large group of troopers, about 10 or so could kill a securitron with the firepower available since the lore stated kill ratio for troopers vs the BoS Paladins is roughly the same. Hanlon states the NCR loses 1000 troopers a year so it's not as if the NCR can't muster that amount of force. Further if the NCR rangers or troopers or whoever had anti-robotics weapons, weapons the NCR can produce/restore, the Securitrons would be even easier to kill.

It's not as if a campaign to retake the Hoover Dam would last years, so the NCR wouldn't go long without power. Further the power has only been on for 5 years so it's not as if the NCR doesn't have alternative sources of power (and water) they can't fall back on for the short duration of the campaign.



Tell that to the millions of NCR citizens paying higher taxes rates to fill House's coffers, some of whom upset about House stealing the Dam from them in the first place.

And how many soldiers would die before that stopped? How many famines would the NCR go through before people reconsidered? How long would the NCR go without electricity before people changed their minds?

1. Securitorns are not invisible. They armed with 9mm Machine Guns, Rapid Fire G-28 Grenade Launchers, M-235 missile launchers, and the X-25 Gatling laser system.Not to mention Auto Repair System. Sure, NCR can kill them but Mr House can simply build more when Vegas is more developed.

3. You forgot to mention the other millions of NCR citizens that wants there government to actually fix there country.