I have no idea who to go with House or Legion. I like House and Legion because they think long term and believe the end justfies the means which is what i believe in so i just dont know

It depends on what you want. The Legion may very well take over the entire west, while House only desires to expand Vegas and across the Mojave.

Reliance:

• The Legion relies on war in their regime. The Legion is a fighting force, and when there is nothing left to fight, it may very well turn on itself. So, according to Ulysses, without the NCR, the Legion will fall apart. This is up for speculation.
  
• Mr. House relies on the NCR for his economy. Most people state that the NCR will fall apart, but TBH the NCR will become bolstered with new government, such as a new president and general, and new senators such as Hanlon after a House or Indy victory. However, the cultural aspect of Mr. House can expand very well because he's not relying on men to fight. He's relying on his securitron army.

Outcomes:

• For the Legion, Vegas will become a cultural powerhouse where the Legion will swell with the number of slaves and move westward. The Legion is moving in an opposite direction of House, as Caesar does not want to use Old World values. He wants to change human nature. So, the Mojave will be safer, but with less rights.
  
• For House, Vegas will become a technological and economical powerhouse and he will resurrect Old World values and traditions, so in a sense, he's trying to get back on track where we were in 2077, just minus the "Great War" part. The Mojave will be mostly Independent until House chooses to expand.

I really wish people would stop listening to Ulysses' insane ramblings, he acts as if though the Legion will always stay the same, which it won't under Caesar's synthesis.
Had the Legion won with Lanius in charge then his premonition could be far more likely, but Caesar means to change Legion, which makes me think Ulysses hasn't actually talked to Caesar in a while.

That's why I said that it's speculation. Vegas will become a cultural powerhouse for the Legion, and whatever happens after that, is again, speculation.

You bring up good points its just I hate the way when you do House you just turn in to an NCR monkey then a Mr. House lieutenant and that no one seems to know that your working with Mr. House and just treat you like a NCR member i mean even the casino treat you like NCR. But in the legion its much more fun because people know that your with the legion and say things about it. Also I hate NCR so I dont know I dont want hate and revenge to choose the fate of the wasteland.

You don't have the help the NCR at all except for saving their president.

True but you do have to have a good reputation with them to do that quest and Mr. House dose want you to spare NCR at the end of the game but that is only to put the blame on them :/
But i see what you mean. By the way who did you join and why?

I go with House every time. Every once in a while I pick Independence.

Really? In the casinos I actually get the House dialogue. You know, "not-at-home". You don't have to be idolized with NCR to get "The House Always Wins VI"

mmmmm I might betray the legion and join Mr. House again (If you wonder why i said again its because i joint him the first time around) I dont know I mean I think me joing the Legion could be more hate for the NCR and i just like killing them...... .
But I should not let hate choose the fate of the wasteland.... But i do also agree with the Legion and with Mr. House. Screw it il join Mr. House he seems to be much more better for the type of PC I play as in games and I do enjoy caps, and suits with ties yes that it Mr. House Thanks Gingy you changed my mind. I now support Mr. House!

Edit: Now I just need to get a new avatar and change my location .

In a Mr. House debate thread a few months back, this was my argument.

"Mr. House:

He's a genius. No doubt about it. Often times, he is the one who keeps the families in line, and without him, the families would go loose and cause mayhem. House is the reason New Vegas exists and isn't nuked to hell like DC, because he spared it from about 68 of the 77 missiles. He intelligently designs the New Vegas treaty, and carefully places the NCR right where he wants them. By the time 2281 comes around, the NCR are svcking his teats, and the Legion are not going to go anywhere near Vegas. Right where he wants them.

The question is: What happens after Hoover Dam?

House's regime is about progress. "A blast furnace that forms a new rail line, stretching over the horizon", is how he describes Vegas. I recall a dialogue in which he says "Give me the platinum chip, and in 10 years, you won't recognize this city". That dialogue immediately wanted me to help him. On top of that, he's an intelligent man, and not a block-head like the rest of post-apocalyptic citizens. He's actually enjoyable to talk to. I think his dialogue post-Hoover Dam got me to like him even more as well. "Back to Vegas shall we? We should do something about that Monorail, with all the new resources at hand. I can make sure it not only runs, but runs on time." A lot of people think that his progress is going to be too slow, but I think this points to the fact that he wants almost-immediate progress.

For the courier to be able to muster enough power to make the reforms and changes he/she wants to make in an Independent setting, to keep the families in line, and to make sure his/her allies are loyal to him/her, he/she is going to need to step directly into House's shoes. Autocracy, Dictatorship, et cetera. The problem is, I'm terrified by this. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely". I'm afraid that my Courier, post-Hoover Dam, which is a setting that I cannot control myself, will fall prey to this saying. However, Mr. House proves that he does not abide by it. He doesn't want the people to worship him as a messiah, or dictate what people do. People say that his "dictatorship" (I consider it Autocracy) is wrong. Well, the NCR is weak because of their corrupt Democracy. House is succeeding in the direct place where the NCR fails. Corruption. He's not a corrupt man at all. (Yes, he's flesh and blood, not silicon) He just wants to be able to bring the Old World back. And since I'm very fond of the 30's-50's era, I stand by this as well, regardless of what Ulysses thinks in this instance.

Mr. House's biggest issue for a lot of people, is that for the time being, he will place progress over people. However people do not understand that this will help the people more in the long run. A flourishing economy and high-technology, as well as robots to fight instead of the people, will be HUGE. It might eventually usher a renaissance era (by post-apocalyptic standards). Independence often gains sympathy, because the Courier can choose to be very sympathetic to the locals at the extent of the player's morals.

People say that House is cruel, but what they do not know is the fact that you only have to do one "evil" (notice how I put quotation marks around it) thing for him. Destroy the brotherhood. It's the logical thing to do if you're independent or with Mr. House, because they're going to be obnoxious hoarders of technology which will prove to be a curse to the local populace. Not to mention, it will hurt the stability that House is going for. For the kings: If you sic' them on the NCR then House leaves them be. A lot of people say "Well, I was peaceful with the NCR and kings, then House killed them!" People need to get over this. Every single decision you make in New Vegas carries a ton of weight, and you need to realize what you're doing before you make a decision like that.

The Followers maintain a status quo (they didn't have an ending), which is actually really good. You can give Primm a sheriff, and House recognizes it as self-sufficient and does not take it upon himself to govern and protect it. Honestly, in my opinion, Mr. House is the last of the real remnants of the old world. He IS the Old World, in the flesh. I am very fond of the Old World up until the corrupt democracy that blasted it to hell. Again, Mr. House is not resembling that corrupt Democracy. The NCR is.

This is why I support Mr. House in the long run."

Not to mention Big Mountain, if House ever finds that place. Plus, in my opinion, Mr House cant always reliy on his Securitorns so I still think Vegas will atleast so have a small army supplemented by robots and maybe the Jacobstown mutants.

So true Mr. House is the only hope to return back to the Pre-war /old world with out hm we are doomed to stay in the wasteland. I do like the Legion still but now I fully support Mr. House then the Legion then indy and then never the NCR never going to support them. Thanks Gingy for the help

Good point House would be the best hope for every one in the long run and short as he would have Big Mountain which will make him the most powerful faction in Fallout.

He can already get pretty damn powerful with his Mark II securitrons and Boomers as allies.

But actually, Big Mountain is only the beginning. Imagine if Mr. House got his hands on the replicator technology inside Sierra Madre vending machines and deciphered it, which he very well could considering he's a genius (there is one in the Mojave, inside the Abandoned BOS Bunker after you finish DM). My god, the possibilities the wasteland under House would have with unlimited resources.

True, but I would still see a army.

Yup, Humanity shall be rebuilt, spaceships made, then Mass Effect Begins, sorta

He said that he could look for another planet. The "spaceship" theme is not really a valid argument on House's behalf.

The only criticism I have of House's regime is that, economically, it's far too reliant on NCR commerce. Though you get the feeling House has divised ways to circumvent that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't House draw up an agreement in which the NCR still receives electricity from Hoover Dam, but at so many caps per kilowatt? NCR already drained its lakes, so I don't see how they could refuse. I am also led to believe that with a sufficient Barter skill, you can avoid an embargo all together. And even if that's not possible, there's evidence to suggest that the Mojave campaign wasn't all that too popular with NCR citizens. For example, Hanlon is elected as senator of Redding on the back of an anti-war line. That in mind, there's no reason why tourism would decline - and if it did, it'd only be a short-term setback.

I, personally, am open to the idea of an independent Vegas because the people are already self-sufficient to begin with, and with an NCR ending, for instance, they'd only be burdened with taxes. The Legion offer nothing to the Mojave and in time, I believe it will crumble. For one, it took all the East to take the West (if Legion wins at Hoover Dam), so how could they possibly hold both frontiers. Secondly, there is no prominent figure in the Legion fit to rule, IMO. There is clear animosity between members of the Legion's higher echelons (Lanius and Vulpes being the most pertinent example) and though I wouldn't go so far to say the Legion would decline into factionalism with various blocs vying for control, I don't see how it could progress efficiently.

It's obvious that, for House, progress takes precedence over people. But there is still a great extent of freedom and the people's liberties remain largely in tact. There is no progress without people (the people are the backbone of any society IMO) and I don't think House is blind to that. In the long term, I believe the people will benefit from House's benevolent autocracy. His laissez-faire leadership style will also prove to be constructive, as people can persue their own enterprises free of taxation, which promises a stronger economy and greater living-standards in the long run. Though 'long term' is the operative phrases, here.

When it comes down to it, no one can match House's vision. He's a pre-war genius and has all the knowledge at his disposal to propel humanity forward to a brighter future. No one else has the means or ablility calculate complex algorithms as House can, which essentially allows him to predict the future and adapt accordingly to any problem which may arise. This asset should NOT be overlooked. He's not infallible, but at the same time, I simply can't see House falling victim to his own image. Let us not forget that he was comatosed for over a century as a result of his inability to handle the Lucky 38's outdated software, so it's not as if he's hasn't experienced any adversity; this reminds him that he's not some machine-god messiah, and House is well aware of that. On the other hand, Caesar is a megolamaniac (and a very petulant one at that), albeit and very intelligent one.

I read your post, Gingy, and it really made me reconsider my stance. I find myself steadily veering toward House. We shall see.

ADDENDUM: Aha! I totally forgot about Big Mountain! And of course those molecular-assemblers, the vending machine things. Indeed, the very concept of NEED would be eliminated. The possibilities truly are endless. And did I neglect to mention House has a freakin' army of 8ft battle robots?! The roads would be safe and Vegas would be protected from any potential invaders.

In the short term, yes, but the NCR will become bolstered with men such as Hanlon in their ranks of government, and Mr. House knows they won't be around forever. About the agreement? Erm... I don't remember that. If anything, House "steals" electricity from the NCR by infiltrating the El Dorado. They had an agreement before the Battle for Hoover Dam, but they both broke their ends of the agreement because the NCR was planning to kill House, and Mr. House was planning to push the NCR out of the Mojave with his crescendo of power following the Second Battle for Hoover Dam.

House is actually better for the long-term than he is in the short term. In all, Mr. House actually cares about the people, and here's the evidence.

• He screams in agony when you tell him that you're working for the Legion, because even though having slaves is profitable, he says "Slavery is a terrible future for mankind". This shows that he is sympathetic to the human population on the large-scale.
  
• Economical progress means a ton of jobs for the people in the Mojave, perhaps going so-far as to attract NCR citizens from California to live in the Mojave. That improves the standard of living for the Mojave and brings the lower-class to a better way of life.

Even though it was for selfish reasons, keep in mind that he is the reason the Courier survived being shot in the head. Without Victor, the Courier would've died in that grave.

I basically said that in my post. I mentioned Hanlon is elected senator for Redding on the back of his anti-war campaign. This means that there is likely to be a change in the NCR's policy and it shows that the NCR citizens have no moral obligation to boycott Vegas. Again, like I said, I recognised it as a short-term problem only, if there is even an embargo at all.

Reload your SYS save for House. When you install the override module at Hoover Dam, House prints out the terms of unconditional surrender for the NCR. It proposes that, so long as NCR personel comply with the terms, electricity and water will flow from the Dam to NCR. Electricity: 5 caps per kilowatt hour; Water: 5 caps per gallon. Like I said, NCR drained all its lakes, so there's no way they could refuse this. This would of course boost Vegas' economy without relying to heavily on tourism. Yay!

Didn't deny that. Neither party kept their end of the bargain, so fair is fair. And by overriding El Dorado, House can now tactically control Securitrons at greater distances; roads and communities will ergo be better-protected. Double yay!

Did I suggest I thought otherwise? I 100% agree, of course

This is basically what I said, though I was rather inexplicit so you have my apologies. And as they're free of taxes, they can persue individual enterprise at a far more productive level, which of course will mean better living standards... again, as I previously said

Ah. I thought you meant that The Treaty for New Vegas would still be active after Hoover Dam.

And by the way, you replied to my thread saying that you agreed with me, asking if I suggested otherwise. I'm agreeing with you and stacking a few points on top of that.

Ah, awesome Your essay on House was very enlightening, so thanks for posting that Might need to get a pro-House signature going!

Indeed, its something of a flaw in his otherwise excellent plan, but given the circumstances this isn't exactly a flaw "he" made. He has no other choice than to rely partly on the NCR for income due to the fact that they are really the only faction within his proximity (and perhaps the entire continental United States) which can fuel the type of economy a city like Vegas has.

However, he's clearly thought this through and planned out what he can do to (as you said) circumvent this issue. For instance, he is not terribly worried about the threat of embargo because he knows what kind of beast the NCR is. The NCR doesn't have the ability to totally prevent its citizens from patronizing New Vegas and indeed he also is likely counting on the often corrupt nature of NCR politics to get his job done.

House excels at diplomatic maneuvering, and the NCR government is a ripe field for him to deploy his craft in. All he needs is a few bribes here and there, a couple congressmen in his pockets, and perhaps tempt some very rich Brahmin Baron investors and boom, embargo lifted and the NCR government can be at least partly influenced by House in order to prevent future issues.

Like House says, he would have no problem with the NCR if they weren't trying to usurp him. They are definitely a better alternative than the Legion and are actually showing progress.

Well, small nations like the Mojave Wasteland need to rely on a larger power. Besides, if you look towards history, there are times when smaller nations relied on larger nations (not just in size but in economic power) to supply factories and such. In that regard, House is far less vulnerable since he already has technology sectors IN Vegas, just not active yet.

NCR will have no reason NOT to partake in Vegas' goodies other than blind revenge. No other place in NCR, except maybe Reno, has what Vegas offers and even Reno can't offer the high technology sectors that Vegas is going to have, if we believe House, in ten years.
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As for the Original Post:

Legion offers:

• Slow, steady progress with a very meritocratic and military oriented future.
  
• Your value is measured by your skill and/or knowledge, not birthright (unless you're Caesar)
  
• An Empire
  
• Tempering people to survive terrible places like Two Suns or the vast stretches of desert between towns
  
• None of that riff-raff with Congress filling their own pockets. And the current Caesar, Sallow, does offer a somewhat sound plan

House offers:

• Fast, technological progress. Meritocratic (as seen by the Courier) but still based on a monetary system. I.E: You make lots of money for House and you get goodies
  
• Technology and Science is heavily focused on in House's Mojave
  
• And Thanks to Gingy: House does plan on making some sort of nation. As Ulysses says, "The Mojave will become House's walls"
  
• House deletes the main problem with a dictatorship: A bad dictator. House will live for at least another two hundred years and for that time, House isn't an oppressive or idiotic dictator.
  
• House's Securitron Army negates many basic military principles like morale, espionage (how can you wiretap House without him knowing about it?), and a supply line (all Securitrons need is ammo...and they don't seem to run out of it).

Oh yeah, and House reminds me of this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Chung-hee
A man with a great vision and the means to fulfill it. He has no reason to oppress anyone who just goes about their daily business.

Difference is, diplomatically, House and the NCR have had a fragile relationship at best, and after the NCR spent years embroiled in a conflict with Caesar's Legion (in the process wasting thousands of the taxpayer's money - not to mention the lives lost), they're suddenly ousted from the region and find themselves firmly under House's heel. On the face of it, it appears as if the NCR might not be so willing to 'co-operate', for a lack of a better word.

However (and I'm not accusing of not reading my post thoroughly), I went on to scrutinise that argument over three paragraphs, and I believe it's a rather tenuous criticism. As I said, there is a clear anti-war sentiment among NCR citizens as Hanlon was elected senator of Redding on the back of his line against the Mojave campaign. This indicates that back home there is no moral obligation to boycott Vegas (as Andronicus expanded upon). Also, Kimball will be thrown out of office and is likely to be replaced by an administration diametrically opposed to his policy. Then there's Hoover Dam. NCR would be mad not to accept House's terms; all of the Core Region''s lakes have been drained, which is partly why they were in the Mojave in the first place. As I said before, this would boost Vegas' economy.

Good point about Reno. There's also location to factor in; I'm led to believe that Vegas is in greater proximity to the majority of the NCR populace?

Technological development will of course provide employment opportunities, in turn keeping society productive and fostering a stable economy. Not to mention the amenities it will provide the people. Truly, House will usher a new age of technological wonderment and thrust humanity forward to a brighter future.

The Mr. House army is growing.