No cause a independent Vegas has over 100 securitrons armed to the teeth with rocket launchers, grenade launchers, 9mm submachineguns, lazers and in my case, a bomber watching over the sky (boomers are just a charm), BoS patrolling the southern part of Vegas along I 15, and even though they aint part of ''my'' Vegas (just saying my Vegas in my case) they still are good allies and support me, plus Great Khans in western Vegas supplieyng the followers, Kings ''keeping order'' in freeside, Followers helping the poor, three lovely casinos (except the Ultra luxe, they give me the creeps , and of course my two ally tribes in Zion (drugs are bad BTW mmkay)

So you see im giving them freedom and prosperity, kinda like the NCR just without taxes and with a little more freedom and anarchy. The robots can keep order. As for me being short sighted, well [censored] YOU [censored]. Dont go around dissing people cause you surely cant see the big picture of an army of highly technological armed army of robots occupieng Vegas. If i would be the leader of ''New Vegas'' (fallout Vegas sort to speak) i would easily be able to secure it with all those robots and yes man. If someone turns on me, i kill them, if the NCR or Legion come back (which i doubt since i nuked the [censored] out of them) well, lets just say i also got a few followers willing to risk their lives for me, armed to the teeth with weapons and armor from all over Vegas.

Yes, again with the immortality. The point I'm trying to make infinitely clear here is that propping up a dictator with the backing of an uber-army is *worse* when that dictator won't die of old age.


This here is a good point. Why risk the worst coming worse (I assume you mean House acting badly) by giving a man that kind of power?

Any dictator with that kind of power is a problem, at least one leading a Yes Man army doesn't have the added advantage of immortality though.



Fair enough. Me personally, I find it very worrisome when one would back a man with that much power solely on his word that he'll be a good boy (I don't mean to presume your motivations but I think it's fair to say that many are going by his word.)

Wasn't a strawman, it's just I assumed that's where this conversation was going. I've seen so much, 'he's been alive for 200 years, it's unnatural!', when that's the story of modern medicine as a whole, it extends the human life. Maybe it's just my lack of compassion, but I just don't see the
wrong' in siding with House, the only real 'wrong' things House does are when they involve one faction having pledge loyalty to NCR, and the other because it allows NCR to potentially undermine House. (Whether they WOULD or not is up for debate, but as we've seen through House's actions, he prefers to prevent the possibility, not allow it to progress and just 'wait and see'.)

Well, that's all we CAN do. But House's idea of progress, which is what The Strip has become in seven years, is my idea of progress. NCR says they're progress, but their economy is crap, their troops are poorly equipped, and the current administration spreads itself to thin. Player aside, who basically plays the Deus Ex Machina for NCR if they side with them. (Which ingame I pretty much side with NCR as often as I can without doing NCR's plans for Vegas), NCR's chances of winning at the start of the game are terrible. Technically, there's even trouble for the Legion, since if you sort of 'stream together' all the playthroughs, Caesar falls to his tumor and won't survive the night. But the Legion has the strength to overcome NCR still. Yet people take NCR on faith they'll help anyone not NCR, Legion on their 'dream of changing' into an 'Empire', and House on his word he'll 'progress Vegas'. For those of us who side in House, we take his line 'Bring me the Platinum Chip, and in ten years you'll hardly recognise this city' as our main reason for siding with House.

But that's why I said that, because you're apparently under the idea that YOU become the leader of Vegas, which it's been indicated is NOT the case. Look at Benny's plans, they weren't an 'independant' Vegas, they were a 'Chairman become the biggest gang' plan. All you're doing is toppling one Autocrat for another, and the moment you even slightely step on someones toes and they cry foul, would you just shrug it off? You're under the idea you can make Vegas be this that or the other which just isn't the case, because every ending for a faction has it's consequences.

House: Long term progress over people.
NCR: Slow and very bumpy progress.
Legion: Stability through brutality and an fear.
Independant: Either A. Chaotic anarchy or B. Short term progress and stability, but the long term?

To allow a player to go 'Well, we can take over....and...and....I CAN FEED THE PEOPLE WITH MY MADRE GOLD!' allows an ending with no consequences, which defies the design of New Vegas.

Well I think that House wouldn't nessisarily mind nuking the legino since they have no interest in his vision or his decadance. However he does capitalize on the conflict between the powers so he wouldn't eliminate the legion unless there was another power to manipulate.

I'm assume you're referring to Freeside here, correct me if I'm wrong. If so, I'm not sure how one could come to that conclusion as the actual ending slide makes it very clear:


It makes no mention of any motivation other than increasing his control by force of arms, ie. an invasion, imperialism. When faced with this, I don't see his motivations (in Freeside anyways) as having anything to do with some sort of preemptive defense against the NCR. The slide says outright the goal is to increase his control, not curb the NCR's.

The gods only know if and how many more times this would occur under House's rule after he's given that power he so desperately craves.


Well we can leave it at that then. You've heard my trepidations on the matter (ruling out the Yes Man ending all together): I'd rather trust the future in the hands of a messed up, impotent, imperial nation that at least has a population with the collective ideals of republicanism than in the hands of an imperial, all-powerful dictatorship with the potential of being around a looooong time. But I guess I've always been an Enlightenment Ideals and 'Sic Semper Tyrannus' sort of guy.

Well, putting aside the 'War with NCR ending, they either side with NCR or if you don't complete it, things are status quo in Freeside. Aside from them picking their fight with NCR, which in House's mind would likely be impressive given they are willing to fight off NCR for their independence, his minsight might be that they are just a petty gang, and despite their lighter side, the Kings ARE a gang, they're just better dressed. Plus, the Kings deaths were brought on themselves, seeing as they could have simply said 'woah, hey, alright, we'll pack up and move elsewhere'. They picked the hard way, and paid for it. Do I like the Kings? Very much so, but my personal feelings aside, they could have avoided that death. So even if it's NOT for fear of potential NCR coups and what have you, it was a power play, in terms of power structure, it's not a bad thing that happens, look at what House has done with The Strip, and Freeside IS a part of old Las Vegas, which House wants to restore. But idealism aside, I can't say I'm to against House's power play, but I do wish the situation would have been more negotiable.


Ehhh, I don't judge things by political name, but by their resume, and in all honesty, I find Robert House the more impressive and suitable candidate for New Vegas' leadership than NCR, beside, their day will come when they come around knocking again, and when they come back, Vegas will be, in my delusions, a shining metropolis. As I've said somewhere else around here, NCR losing the Dam to House is an investment for them in the future of their success.

The reason I so often bring it up has less to do with the extermination of the Kings and more with the fact House invaded in the first place. In my mind the first part (Flush with his victory, Mr. House sent Securitrons into Freeside, thinking to increase his control over the area.) is what's so telling - that House is ready and willing to expand his influence through force.

The Kings' end is just an example of native opposition to an invading force. Could they have survived if they didn't fight the imperialists (NCR and House, respective endings of course), yeah maybe. The Seminoles would have had a better time ad they not defended their land as well, it goes for every native resistance anywhere in history. Also yeah it's very possible things could look up in Freeside under House's dictatorship, again the same can be said in many places conquered by imperial powers in history.

The only point I'm trying to stress is that House is an aggressive, imperial power as the NCR and Legion - a fact many House supporters dance around or outright deny.



Fair enough, you're much more trusting of a House with absolute power than I am.
Agree to disagree.

Thats a great point you bring up, and, for the most part, I agree.

The argument could be made that, on a small scale, house is an imperialist.He will send his securetrons out to the naighboring "states" that have poped up like freeside,westside,NV square, goodsprings,ect, and these "states" will loose their "self determination".

But, houses imperialism is a different (and, in real life,un-realistic) brand of imperialism. The legions imperialism is more classic barbarian, roll through,[censored] and conqure every thing useful, and destroy any thing thats not, then move on(to be fair, I have only seen the legions military, Im not sure how their society is back home).
The NCRs' imperialism is classic European/American Imperialism, move in,occupy their land, take all their resources,kill oppostion to the occupation, and while you are doing this, you make every one back home, and every one living there think you are makeing them "free", civilising them/their lands, or just makeing their lives better.

Houses imperialism is different,because he wants to do things that actualy rebuild/make the area better.True, like the others, he will use force to further his goals. But the main difference is, people will eventualy benifit from building the area up.With the others, all the resources would be sent off elswhere, or worse. Any building they do would be for them, where as any building done by house will help New Vegas. In a way, and especialy on a long term/large scale, mr houses' imperialism is nothing more than the self determination of New Vegas/the mojave as a whole.

Yes true but that doesnt disprove the point that i got Vegas under control with hundreds of armed robots. Dude lets say this was real life (fallout style ya know) and i had taken Vegas with hundreds of mk II securtrons. Dont you think that would be enough to secure Vegas. Sure its short term and i would die at some point, but yes man would still be alive. Sorry bro but thats how i see things, sure there are [censored] consequences, but [censored] doesnt work like, independent is bad. Independent is good
NCR, well this were real i′d side with them, but i got the power to go my own, so i go my own cause that way i can help everyone except the other people in power trying to help themselves.
See what im trying to say?

He would'nt care after you secure Hoover Dam or get the securitron army.

Before , he'd keep NCR about for money. But otherwise, he does'nt care.
I don't think he'd care if you nuked them both early on.
It'd sure fix the NCR outnumbering problems before teh securitrons are awoken.
It definately fixes Caesers Legion for everyone who wants them dead. Which would be every single person and faction in the MW with any sense and who knew what their true agenda was. Which means everyone, esentially.

I nuke both NCR and Caesers Legion. Because I can. And big nukes are always fun, to fire.
And massive nuclear annihalation is exactly what the CL b**tards deserve.
And for a Independant or House path, you need the Boomers and Great Khans onside more than the ncr. And it is good to be liked by Powder Gangers, better than being their enemy.

Maybe caesar cause there isolated in one area. But not the NCR. IMO

Cheers

I sort of see what you're trying to say, and it's also the same thing that thousands of others say when they use Yes Man. "Oh, I'll learn from the problems in History, and I'll succeed where House failed," etc etc, but the Courier isn't a real leader. The courier is a man/woman who lost everything because of ignorance and an unfair plot, not a champion of Vegas. And even if you were able to muster enough strength to claim some sort of "Throne of Vegas" or take Mr. House's place, where is your real support? Sure you have the Boomers on your side, but is the way you are going to go about convincing the populace of Vegas going to be threatening to nuke them? That isn't good for business either. And by the way, you can't really take House's place. That seat belongs to Yes Man, who, by the way cannot think for himself really.

Yes Man is no leader either.

No....

If you favor House, the most beneficial bombing parameters are neither. Getting rid of the Legion wouldn't ruin House's plan, but it would remove the guard-dogs of the east that have been keeping the NCR from attacking in force, which believe me, is far too overwhelming for Mr. House to handle without significant dents in his plans, if not losing the war.

Removing the NCR from the table is the absolute worst you can do, because you're getting rid of House's customers, and by extension you are removing a lot of money for his cause and putting him behind years, possibly decades.

You are speaking as if you do Lonesome road before you even go far into the main questline, which, for the people who tend to stick with one character, is not the case. The securitrons are already awake, Kimball is either alive or dead, depending on your actions, etc etc.

Removing the NCR for a certain amount of time, even a few months, isn't a good thing either. He's already going to have to deal with a large dip in revenue, and prolonging it does nothing to help his cause.

First of all he cant be put back decades, cause decades ago he didnt even have a big Vegas empire, only a few robots. And as your saying he is using the NCR and Legion. They are but two giants fighting, and he is milking one of them out of everything he got, while the other giant keeps the one getting used by house in line. so your right, why kill any of them? Better just make them fight. But that already says alot about him, he doesnt give two [censored] about people. Look i respect NCR (the people that aint corrupt or willing to shoot anyone as Moore) but i would rather kill Legion and NCR if thats the price to let the people of Vegas live their lives in peace. [censored] i dont even have to nuke NCR, just the Legion would be great.
And you control Yes Man, so you control an army of robots armed with missiles and grenade launchers, 9mm submachineguns and lazers which means you control Vegas more or less. NCR come after Vegas if i nuke Legion, then the robots will inflict heavy losses on them. I would rather ally the NCR but since that aint that much of an option, which makes me worried, cause i dont want to kill almost 1 million people that just wanna live their lives, even though they are stepping on the people of the Mojave just so they can pay their war funds. Lets not forget one fact, that the powder gangers were their fault, and im sure the powder gangers had something to do with the uprising of the fiends in eastern Vegas. Many NCR officials do want peace, and so do i.

That seems like the worse option - You'd rather nuke the NCR and have the securitron army deal with the Legion.
Like I've already said without both armies present, the other will overwhelm Vegas. Looking at it tactically it makes more sense to nuke the NCR and cut off major routes to Vegas and at the same time devast their army bulk with the explosion and radiation (which will affect the for decades to come). Then when the attack on NCR is launched, you would simultaneously release the mk.II Secruitrons from the bunker under the Fort - which would be a surprise attack on the whole Legion fort with only one direction to go, East, they will be on retreat and even lose their leadership if Caesar and Lanius fall to the mass army that lay in wait.

Yes but the Legion is known from gathering mass armies after loosing a huge fight. Look that will just make them do a third battle for Hoover Dam, rather just nuke them both and then you and the people of Vegas will come up on top.
VIVA LAS VEGAS!

The same could be said for NCR, both armies at the First Battle of Hoover Dam didn't have a full army there on the field, they used a smaller force because they under estimated each other, NCR were gather a huge army in defense but were destroyed when the events at The Divide took place, Caesar on the other hand had time to transport his army and Lanius in from Arizona.
Caesar as on this 2nd battle is throwing all he has at it.
Nuking them both doesn't serve well and will only limit the growth of Vegas, like my above post says it's more tactical to use all the Nukes on NCR and have the mass Securitron army deal with the Legion. That way at least business from the East is still an option unlike nuking them both and cutting off all supply lines and getting stuck in the fallout on both sides.

Dont expect business from savages that keep slaves. Look Caesar would only get mad if you defeated him, and he sure as hell wouldnt allow people to do business with Vegas. I would rather nuke both threats and then deal with the remnants of NCR and Legion in the Mojave with whatever i had.

Remnants of NCR...How little do you think they have? By nuking both you are splitting your weapons cache, meaning NCR (or Legion) would only get half the pounding they would if you used all the bombs on one of them. The NCR have millions of people so they'll have thousands of troops, a few missiles won't make them just remnants like that when a large bulk still exists. They'd regroup and count their loses right before launcing a full invasion of Vegas, the same qould go for Legion though their numbers would be severly low due to medication etc, nonetheless you wouldn't have reduced them to remnants.
Business is irrelevant just now but it's one reason for not destroying both supply lines into Vegas, you'd be making a bad leader if you didn't take this into account before launching your attack.

• Nuke the NCR with all the bombs, cutting the routes to Vegas. - Set them back decades.
  
• Release the Securitron MK.II army on the Legion at the Fort. - Destroy their military bulk and leadership.
  
• Use the Securitrons to clear a pathway East - Hunting Legion remnants of the Fort.
  
• Create a work force to mass produce more Securitrons.
  
• Use these new Securitrons to fortify the areas West of Vegas - Push West severing any NCR groups trying to push back into Vegas

No they are not millions, they are barely a million. The numbers from the wiki says 750000, but im guessing thats not 100% currect so lets say they are 1 million, and i nuke them with half of then nukes and the Legion with the other half. Then no one threatens Vegas. If i only nuke NCR Legion would still have a chance, they have a GREAT amount of soldiers capable of pushing inside NCR territory, and if they can do that then they can surely put few casulties on the securitron numbers, and raise another army. But its hard to say, they have done it once and i just think they will do it again, you could be right for all i know, but there is a possibility you aint.

No because you have your Securitron army which out guns all of the Legion soldiers, pluss Legion isn't pushing into NCR lands - Vegas isn't NCR owned land. Legion could take down a few yes but they are humans v Machines and it'll take the Legion at least 12 years to get soldiers again (Kid army at least) if they are losing high numbers to the robots, the robots however are manufactured and can be created within days by humans or even other machines, then you could have the people of Vegas actually involved in some fighting which gives you even greater numbers.
No! My tactic is fool-proof

I think if you upgraded the Securitrons, nuking the Legion is preferable to House than not nuking them. The whole point of the Legion in House's plan was a deterrent against NCR invasion, the NCR wouldn't be able to fight the Legion after taking over Vegas so they settled on a tepid alliance. With the Legion nuked it would be easier for House to control Hoover Dam because the Legion could not possibly invade without crossing land severely poisoned by radiation.

You have a point. Nuking the NCR alone would also "show the Legion what the Courier would do if they don't simmer the [censored] down". I saw that on youtube and it totally made my day.

Umm...that's a bit of a leap in logic, isn't it? The Legion are not customers of Vegas, the Legion has a lot of ascetic qualities which don't mesh well with the "services" that New Vegas offers. The Legion is also fanatical, having their citizens in Vegas would be troublesome because they would be compelled by their fanaticism to conquer Vegas through subterfuge and sabotage, they do not know peace except by assimilation through extreme coercion. Inviting the Legion to New Vegas would be about as bad as inviting the Borg.

Legion are savages, you cant just say ''im gonna let them live just cause they cant beat our army''.
They are still doing harm, and they are not gonna bring any caps to Vegas, just gonna send a few raiding parties inside the borders, and they may succed. IDK if i could live with myself if any respectful citizen of Vegas would die just cause i didnt nuke my biggest enemy, but spent all the nukes on a democracy in the west full of inecent people. Rather just nuke them both is what im saying.

Perhaps another, similar question will highlight the dilemma.

Let's say you're Robert House and you have a body again and YOU can act as the Courier. You happen across the Kings-NCR dilemma in Freeside and you can choose how to manipulate the situation.
Which would he choose? He could either manipulate the Kings so that they hate the NCR and remain more loyal to Vegas, making them of potential use in the future...
Or he could manipulate them to work with the NCR, giving him an excuse to wipe them out and take over Freeside for himself?

That's what inspired this thread. House focuses on progress and profit and nothing but. The why's and how's do not matter. But from a business perspective, I can't quite decide if the Kings are better gone or as potential "employees." Or if it's better to manipulate the NCR and Legion for profit, or to bomb them both and revise the business plan entirely to adjust for a new "market" where he clearly has total control.


In the end I think it's about being objective. I personally would decide to destroy the Kings as what they stand for could potentially threaten the House regime, whereas I'd opt to not bomb the NCR because the NCR surely has resources that could be useful. The Legion on the other hand? Again, good question. By the time House has won, the Legion is of little threat at that point. They no longer function as a threat to the NCR, and besides, if done correctly the people of the NCR would never support a re-invasion, according to House. This eliminates the Legion's use entirely, and the Legion is EXTREMELY unlikely to somehow work with or benefit the Strip at all, since the Legion citizens have been taught to work towards a common goal and a higher purpose; something the Strip clearly does NOT stand for.
But does that mean they should be rid of entirely??