How advanced 'were' the Dwemer? : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:44 am

As the SciFi element of ES they had self propelled machines (steam created by magic guided by artificial intelligence?) and clockwork mechanisms but how far did they actually go? There ware some DaVinci style drawings of what looked like cybernetics as well. What has been revealed as far as level of real world technology they reached? Other examples?

» Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:51 pm

You should post in Lore. You'd get a better response.

But I believe the Dwemer's greatest achievement was the ability to harness the power of Lorkhan. Although it led to thier demise, due to improper usage, if used right, it would have been the greatest achievement in all history. Sort of like the discovery of fire to us.

Also, working Artificial Intelligence isn't exactly a simple feat.

» Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:21 am

They had airships, though the Sload are said to have airships as well. They had roboits, energy generators, mechanical weapons (crossbows) and even prosthetic limbs (Yagrum Bagarn's mechanical spider legs). They were pretty advanced.

» Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:45 pm

But we have yet to find a single gun, nor were any sort of boomsticks mentioned in literature.

Also, their robots seemed to have ran of the energy emitted from their generators. In other words, if one if their robots was moved too far from Vvardenfel (assuming the robot being transported was from there), they deactivated. But, when it gets closer, it turns back on. Because of that, I have the biggest inclination that their robots required no souls to power.

» Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:08 pm

I think their advanced technology, although cool, should be viewed as a mask, and behind the false face is deep magic: Tonal Architecture. I take TA is the primal alphabet of the et'ada; and since the Dwemer and giants were said to be close, a shared language makes sense. To speak or harness the language of the gods is pretty 'advanced.'

Real world? I can't make a decent connection, but the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noldor and http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Necrontyr are cose anologues.

» Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:11 am

But we have yet to find a single gun, nor were any sort of boomsticks mentioned in literature.

Which could just as likely imply not that they weren't advanced enough to make them, but that they saw no need for them... also that they knew due to their advanced experience with myths that guns make for crappy myths and so chose to remove them from existence through manipulation of said myths - it seems a single joke escaped their endeavor, which is of course the one thing a Dwemer would overlook...

» Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:40 am

Which could just as likely imply not that they weren't advanced enough to make them, but that they saw no need for them... also that they knew due to their advanced experience with myths that guns make for crappy myths and so chose to remove them from existence through manipulation of said myths - it seems a single joke escaped their endeavor, which is of course the one thing a Dwemer would overlook...

Yeah, a bunch of proto-master chiefs would be rather silly.

» Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:58 am

Which could just as likely imply not that they weren't advanced enough to make them, but that they saw no need for them...

Precisely.
Why bother to make a gun when you can simply use magic?

» Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:50 am

Precisely.
Why bother to make a gun when you can simply use magic?

But why use clockwork when you can create golems from base materials?

» Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:56 am

But why use clockwork when you can create golems from base materials?

You're anology doesn't hold up. You're talking about two different variations of one thing, a golem, and why you would choose one arbitrary variation over the other. This is not the same as comparing a gun to magick, which are radically different ideas entirely...

Of course, one could make up a variety of reasons why they would choose steam over stone anyway...

» Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:43 am

Precisely.
Why bother to make a gun when you can simply use magic?

It's easier to teach soldiers to use a gun than use equally deadly magic. Not to mention it's probably easier to arm an army of Centurions with guns than with magic.

» Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:54 am

It's easier to teach soldiers to use a gun than use equally deadly magic. Not to mention it's probably easier to arm an army of Centurions with guns than with magic.

Or simply build a mages staff with a trigger on it. Make it easy to use for the soldier, but keep the deadly magic part.

» Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:53 pm

Or simply build a mages staff with a trigger on it. Make it easy to use for the soldier, but keep the deadly magic part.

Good point. For that matter, magic staffs/staves would probably be much more effective than early firearms.

» Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:24 pm

Or simply build a mages staff with a trigger on it. Make it easy to use for the soldier, but keep the deadly magic part.

Isn't that what they did in Oblivion?

» Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:49 pm

It's easier to teach soldiers to use a gun than use equally deadly magic. Not to mention it's probably easier to arm an army of Centurions with guns than with magic.

Considering the large volume of magic users (and from the lore, magic is even more accessible to the public through enchanted items and scrolls), there would probably never even be an attempt at research.

Consider how (in real life) we are just now starting to seriously look at alternative fuel sources. The reason is because we had lots of oil so there was no reason to even bother looking into other options. The same concept applies for any area of research, it comes from either necessity, or accidental discovery.

» Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:53 am

Considering the large volume of magic users (and from the lore, magic is even more accessible to the public through enchanted items and scrolls), there would probably never even be an attempt at research.

Consider how (in real life) we are just now starting to seriously look at alternative fuel sources. The reason is because we had lots of oil so there was no reason to even bother looking into other options. The same concept applies for any area of research, it comes from either necessity, or accidental discovery.

I agree with tihs, why find parts and materials to build a contraption if you could already fire a ball of fire/frost/electricity out of your hands.

» Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:22 am

The Dwemer were not above finding parts and materials to build contraptions. They seemed to have enjoyed doing this. A gun can be compact and rather useful, especially when you can't incant a spell, or pull one from an enchantment quickly enough.

Anyway, what interests me more are the puzzle-boxes, which was not what they were called in their day, I'm sure. These appear to be very utilitarian. The one we've seen housed a key, but what other things could the puzzle-boxes have housed, and could they have performed other functions? Could some undiscovered boxes contain virtual rooms full of lost knowledge, relating to the Dwemer?

» Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:35 am

While they might not have had guns, the Dwemer DID have explosives (as we saw in Tribunal). They probably used magic instead of gunpowder, but they were still explosives nonetheless.

» Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:19 am

Isn't that what they did in Oblivion?

Staves in oblivion were basically magic sticks with no obvious means of activation. A part of training a soldier to use a staff would be training them in how to activate it. Training could be vastly simplified with a trigger mechanism to activate it. Then all you have to worry about is aiming.

» Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:18 am

The Dwemer were master enchanters as well, but they loved clockwork because it is complex and basicly a puzzle. they loved puzzles with uses.

» Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:53 pm

As the SciFi element of ES they had self propelled machines (steam created by magic guided by artificial intelligence?) and clockwork mechanisms but how far did they actually go? There ware some DaVinci style drawings of what looked like cybernetics as well. What has been revealed as far as level of real world technology they reached? Other examples?

They were very advanced. An example? The Dwemer.

» Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:30 am

You can't really measure the sophistication of a fantasy culture by comparing it with earthly technology. In practical terms most Tamrielic civilisations can be said to be more 'advanced' than ours. They have very effective life-extension techniques, instantaenous transport, cures for most diseases, organic and crystalline building materials, access to clean energy and so on. They have tackled the same problems that we face in different ways.

» Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:12 pm

You can't really measure the sophistication of a fantasy culture by comparing it with earthly technology. In practical terms most Tamrielic civilisations can be said to be more 'advanced' than ours. They have very effective life-extension techniques, instantaenous transport, cures for most diseases, organic and crystalline building materials, access to clean energy and so on. They have tackled the same problems that we face in different ways.

haha this is true

» Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:05 am

hell, you can cure any desease with either a drink or a simple donation to any church altar. Things get more complicated after three days though...

» Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:09 am

The Dwemer almost managed to build a metal god. So I guess they were very, very advanced.