How to Become a God?

Post » Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:09 am

http://www.imperial-library.info/characters/trial_vivec.shtml

"This role-play is done in the Official TES Forum. Some devs and ex-devs participate in the play, and to the fans this event in the play is considered semi-official."


Tricky material. The question is, can this be considered canon?
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Brιonα Renae
 
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Post » Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:03 am

Tricky material. The question is, can this be considered canon?


Take it as you see fit.
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Nick Jase Mason
 
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Post » Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:13 pm

Tricky material. The question is, can this be considered canon?

More canon than hit points.
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Stacyia
 
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Post » Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:00 am

Azura, Alamexia, Vivec and Nerevarine, how do they became gods?

It is a Discussion, so any ideas will be great.

I think that by doing something realy great and good, they became gods after they deaths, i mean, why can't Alamexia become a god by, before her death, she was a Priestess of the temple and healed many ill people?
or Vivec, in UespWiki, they saying:
"He has saved the Dunmeri people from certain death on numerous occasions, most notably when he taught them how to breathe water so that he could flood Morrowind and kill the Akaviri invaders, c. 2E 572".

There are many other gods, if you have any ideas about them, it will be realy great.

Okay, what you do is first, mess with really powerful magic. Second, abuse said powerful magic. Third, use magic to become immortal (Or at least mostly Immortal), then make up a bunch of [censored] (Like the Water-Mask and CHIM) and feed it to the populace as the only and absolute truth. Well, that's what Vivec did, anyway.
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Eoh
 
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Post » Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:01 pm

... then make up a bunch of [censored] (Like the Water-Mask and CHIM) and feed it to the populace as the only and absolute truth. Well, that's what Vivec did, anyway.

False, Vivec did not feed it to the populace; the Sermons are not a widely dispersed book and is not a chief religious text... Also, feeding implies that he put effort into making the reader understand; not only does Vivec write quite cryptically at times, but he also more or less was just like "Yea, there's some books laying around somewhere that I wrote. If you read and comprehend them then you'll be like, God, no seriously. Have at it if you want..." Hardly writhing with effort to force it on the populace...
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Saul C
 
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Post » Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:35 am

False, Vivec did not feed it to the populace; the Sermons are not a widely dispersed book and is not a chief religious text... Also, feeding implies that he put effort into making the reader understand; not only does Vivec write quite cryptically at times, but he also more or less was just like "Yea, there's some books laying around somewhere that I wrote. If you read and comprehend them then you'll be like, God, no seriously. Have at it if you want..." Hardly writhing with effort to force it on the populace...

Well they must've done something, being the majority of the dunmer population before Imperial occupation worshipped him and the other two. Also, being that before Imperial occupation they would "reform" any dissenters from the religion (and even after the occupation, any members of "violent" or "Anti-government" dissenting religions were also brought up to the big rock and tortured) that sounds a bit like forcing it.
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Jose ordaz
 
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Post » Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:23 am

Well they must've done something, being the majority of the dunmer population before Imperial occupation worshipped him and the other two. Also, being that before Imperial occupation they would "reform" any dissenters from the religion (and even after the occupation, any members of "violent" or "Anti-government" dissenting religions were also brought up to the big rock and tortured) that sounds a bit like forcing it.

Nope still. You're talking about two different things. The Sermons and the faith of the Tribunal Temple are two separate issues/things. The Dunmer religious texts are the majority of those present on http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/#dunmer list, with such books as Saryoni's Sermons, The Anticipations, The Pilgrim's Path etc being primary religious texts. The Sermons (which is what you originally referenced, not Temple doctrine), are as I said not widely spread to the populace and not the religious text that the Dunmer follow. I wouldn't be surprised if most Dunmer aren't aware of them.

Another point on which your statement still falls through is that, even if they did try and force it (Temple doctrine, not the Sermons; the Sermons aren't forced on anybody) on some, they did not force it on "the populace." The majority of the Dunmer willingly follow the faith of the Tribunal Temple, just like most folks in Cyrodiil follow the Nine Divines... Besides that, why wouldn't they try and reform violent or rebellious factions, that's just the smart thing for a theocracy (or any government) to do...
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Lynette Wilson
 
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Post » Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:21 am

Even if Vivec murdered in front of kitchen staff that would have no consequence. The kitchen staff doesn't sit about in mid air. People rarely do anything about crime unless they believe it is completely safe to do so. Historically when society condones crime, even the dissenters quietly deplore while being in accord with those powers. Why I find Morrowind believable is the dissenters are in hiding or dead.
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Emily Jeffs
 
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Post » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:50 am

Even if Vivec murdered in front of kitchen staff that would have no consequence. The kitchen staff doesn't sit about in mid air. People rarely do anything about crime unless they believe it is completely safe to do so. Historically when society condones crime, even the dissenters quietly deplore while being in accord with those powers. Why I find Morrowind believable is the dissenters are in hiding or dead.

But the Ashlanders have been saying that he killed Nerevar ever since it supposedly happened.
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Davorah Katz
 
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Post » Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:27 am

Hoist thy own petard.
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FirDaus LOVe farhana
 
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Post » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:12 am

But the Ashlanders have been saying that he killed Nerevar ever since it supposedly happened.


Except that the ashlanders have no standing anywhere, and vivec will have no consequences exacted on him just beacuse a bunch of nomads said he committed the crime. Only someone with so kind fo real influence can make sure he is punished, and those people are all either long dead, or went to Akavir.
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Glu Glu
 
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Post » Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:03 am

Why would anyone want to punish Vivec anyway?

The ashlanders said he killed Nerevar, they don't say he should be punished though. Unless you count the Nerevarine's quest as punishment upon Vivec; which even Vivec dosen't since he willingly cooperated with the Nerevarine. Vivec is the perpetrator and Vivec is long gone. No-one can or would punished Vehk.
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Marie
 
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Post » Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:20 am

Aren't we arguing why it couldn't happen when we know darn well it already did?
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zoe
 
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Post » Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:19 am

The ashlanders said he killed Nerevar, they don't say he should be punished though.


Yes they do. The constantly rag on him, saying he doesn't deserve to be a god and should have that stripped away from him (which it eventually is). One of the main reason why they helped the hero in Morrowind was not only in the hopes that he would expel the imperials, but also strip he tribunal infidels of their godhood.
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JD bernal
 
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Post » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:41 am

Yes they do. The constantly rag on him, saying he doesn't deserve to be a god and should have that stripped away from him (which it eventually is). One of the main reason why they helped the hero in Morrowind was not only in the hopes that he would expel the imperials, but also strip he tribunal infidels of their godhood.

But technically, they want to free him and the Tribunal.
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gemma king
 
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Post » Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:05 am

Aren't we arguing why it couldn't happen when we know darn well it already did?


Vivec was punished?
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luis dejesus
 
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Post » Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:28 am

Vivec was punished?

Self-acquitted.

He was put on trial! In the IC, with the Emperor, no less. What more do you want?
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leni
 
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Post » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:29 pm

Self-acquitted.

He was put on trial! In the IC, with the Emperor, no less. What more do you want?


It was more like a night down the Theatre Royal than a trial.
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sam smith
 
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Post » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:48 pm

And the Ashlanders were going to out on suits and hire Johnny Cochrane?
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Jimmie Allen
 
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Post » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:04 am

And the Ashlanders were going to out on suits and hire Johnny Cochrane?


Obviously. Why need the emperor when you have good ole Johnny?
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BEl J
 
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Post » Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:14 am

It was more like a night down the Theatre Royal than a trial.


Perhaps we need a biting social commentary written on par with To Kill a Mocking Bird to point out the injustices in the legal system in regards tot he trials of gods.


Obviously. Why need the emperor when you have good ole Johnny?


I don't think the Chewbaca defense would work in Morrowind, those Dunmer are pretty savvy.
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Alan Whiston
 
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Post » Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:58 am

I don't think the Chewbaca defense would work in Morrowind, those Dunmer are pretty savvy.

I don't think South Park would work in Morrowind; those Dunmer don't tell jokes.
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Melung Chan
 
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Post » Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:54 am

...biting social commentary...


well there was some spear-biting at the trial
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James Potter
 
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Post » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:21 am

Perhaps we need a biting social commentary written on par with To Kill a Mocking Bird to point out the injustices in the legal system in regards tot he trials of gods.


Tamriel will first have to get past the stage of Might makes Right. :P
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Unstoppable Judge
 
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Post » Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:39 am

Except that the ashlanders have no standing anywhere, and vivec will have no consequences exacted on him just beacuse a bunch of nomads said he committed the crime. Only someone with so kind fo real influence can make sure he is punished, and those people are all either long dead, or went to Akavir.

Punishment is a crude idea whose only use is to make the person who feels wronged feel better, with the side notion of hopefully deterring future acts of the same kind by the individual being punished and to make them sorry for what they did.
Since frankly I don't care about the first part, I'll address the second first and why Vivec requires no punishment for such a reason. First we must define what Vivec did wrong, and he does that for us:
    "The sin of the Tribunal, however, is in the breaking of an oath to Azura to forebear from tapping the Heart with Kagrenac's tools, and in the folly of seeking to become gods. Breaking the oath was evil. Becoming gods was folly. If we sinned, we have paid the price... But, for the respect I held for Nerevar, and the respect I held for myself, I should never have betrayed my oath. Of all my life's actions, I most regret that failure."--Vivec
Now you might throw in persecution of the Dissident Priests as well, but he's already been reconciled with them, so we move on. I think we can rest assured that Vivec won't be breaking any more oaths to Azura, and with the Heart gone he won't be tapping it again, meaning that he can't do those again anyway, so punishment won't/can't deter him from it anyway. Also, he notes that they've already paid their price...
If punishment is to make him feel sorry for what he did, he already said he regretted it, and goes on to say that:
    Now that Dagoth Ur is gone, we can turn our energies to the more humble needs of the people. It is good, honest work, and I believe there is redemption in it.--Vivec
So he is seeking redemption, or plans on it. You may argue that he went to Akavir and is skipping out, but really, can you say that there is no way that he's working behind the scenes... Vivec admitted he did, he feels sorry for it and isn't going to do it again, he did the best he could and is seeking to reconcile it; give him a break already...
A final note:
    "The most I can say is: I did the best I could, as I saw things. Can you, mortal, presume to judge the actions and motives of a god?--Vivec

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Madison Poo
 
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