I disagree.
The event where it is made absolutely certain whether you are Nerevar Reborn or not is the answer you give to Dagoth Ur when he asks you what you are (Nerevar Reborn/self-willed adventurer/Imperial agent etc...). Only the answer "I am Nerevar Reborn" makes you Nerevar Reborn. As said so often before, the term Nerevarine does not have the same meaning as Nerevar Reborn. (Yes, there's some kind of irony that you don't have to be Nerevar Reborn to fulfill the prophecy). In my book, the failed incarnates are nothing more and nothing less than spirits (bound by prophecy), that reside in the cavern with little to no 'technical' difference to any other spirit (be it Bone Lord, Wraith or Dwemer Ghost). The Nerevarine is not talking to himself - he is talking to the spirits of the people who have gone the same path of prophecy, but failed at the one or other point. The prophecy is the connection all of these characters share. As to the Dreamsleeve, not all souls go into the dreamsleeve instantly - that would make ghosts and all other kinds of spirits impossible.

In my opinion, that's the traditional viewpoint most people have that have a very basic lore understanding. That's the one I used to have anything

If the prophecy is the only connector, how is that TOO much different from the "you're talking to yourself" theory? Yeah, they're technically different entities, but they're still pretty unified by the same thing.

I agree with Nelian. Didn't Peakstar herself said she fell in battle? She failed were, we, the PC succeed. So failed incarnate is correct. They might have been the reincarnation of Lord Nerevar but lacked the skill to entirely fulfill the prophecy. Imo, that doesn't mean they are false incarnates.

Your post actually sounds more like support of the "talking to yourself" idea rather than the idea Nalion was talking about.

Unless you were really referring to Luagar rather than Nalion.

Was thinking the same as well. "Talking to myself" does not seem logical if they, the failed incarnates, were able to retain their memories and the mere fact if they were the same as the PC, the game would not exist the way it was at the time of the recent Nerevarine (they would have already succeed).

I think the view that 'good lore shouldn't be accessible to people with a basic understanding' is a sillily flawed one, and not a little condescending. Complicated ≠ right.

And although boring = wrong, Occam's Razor sometimes makes for better and cleaner storytelling than trying to shoehorn in pointless intellectualisms into everything.

Its about damn time somebody that's been around for a while disagreed.

Yes, the term Nerevarine may not have to have the same meaning as Nerevar Reborn, however its difficult for "pantheon by incarnation" to have any other meaning than being reborn. And yes, all souls don't go directly to the dreamsleeve, I don't think anybody was pushing the idea that they did - rather its the idea that Azura circumvented the dreamsleeve with the Cavern of the Incarnate.

The player character may have the choice to decide if he is actually Nerevar Reborn but that does not discount what has been previously stated. You cannot simply ignore the evidence: The Sermons stating that Nerevar will 'come again and again', Nu-Hatta stating that it was incarnation and the very semantics of them being called 'incarnates' that have failed and being in a Cavern of the Incarnate. To say that the spirits in the Cavern are just normal spirits is to discount all this, and honestly the Sermons make it too cool to just discount.

Nu-Hatta might have been wrong on whether the Nerevarine chose the road of mantling, was actually incarnate, or was just some random guy that killed a god, but that has no bearing on the spirits in the Cavern. Just because you might not have been Nerevar Reborn doesn't mean that they weren't, especially when there's reason to believe they were - its just another "screw you fate" moment that the player can take.

Yea, that's what I meant when I said "If you break it down it is correct in one way or another." Even if you don't accept it at face value when you really get down to it its the same thing.

Isn't that what I said?

But one must keep in mind that sometimes Occam's razor leads to a false conclusion. Especially when things like "pointless intellectualisms" and whether or not an explanation is complex or not can be very subjective. Also, complicated sometimes is right.

You don't become the Nerevarine to fulfill the prophecies. You fulfill the prophecies to become the Nerevarine. All the failed incarnates are dubbed as such, and failed thusly. I'm not sure how Azura plays into this - perhaps Nerevar's return is not a guaranteed success. Perhaps each failed incarnate did indeed possess the soul of Nerevar, but unlike most cliche'd game prophecies, the Nerevarine prophecy is not one of guaranteed completion. The ghosts' journeys are ones in which Nerevar had continually failed, until he finally succeeded - with you. In a way I guess that ties back to the matter of what defines the Nerevarine? :shrug:

So yes - I believe the ghosts in the cave are not simply "pretenders", but indeed the Nerevar(ine) like yourself. They are effectively you, except that their save game files got deleted halfway through the Main Quest.

What is false about the conclusion that the ghosts (who call themselves "spirits of the ancestors") in the Cavern of the Incarnate are just that?

And that aside, coming up with overwrought and unnecessarily convoluted explanations and then slating people who 'have too basic an understanding' seems a lot more wrong, in terms of developing good storytelling, in my personal subjective opinion.

The ghosts also say "You bear the Moon-and-Star, the ring of Nerevar. None may deny; you ARE Nerevar Reborn, the prophesied Incarnate."--Peakstar

I've already stated what's false about the conclusion.

I didn't intend to argue that point either way in my post. I'm merely pointing out that occams razor does not necessarily lead to the truth, and that 946 bunch of 0's would need to be confronted with a more substantial argument that his view is convoluted then merely stating it. Otherwise, we're just using occam's razor as a justification for the assumptions we carried into the thread.

I can see why you don't like 946 bunch of 0's phrasing in this case, though I don't think he intended to offend.

As for the question itself, I think they are versions of you. Though this could all be daedric trickery, I suppose.

That's what she might think. The prophecy got fulfilled, for the masses, it wouldn't make much difference whether the one who fulfilled the prophecy was Nerevar Reborn or not, the main thing is the job got done. I know that sounds like a pretty weak excuse, but I think it still fits.
The Sermons are written for the benefit of the Nerevarine and to teach him. I don't have much time now to look up the specific Sermons, but Vivec uses historic Nerevar, but really means to adress the Nerevarine - in fact, the Nerevarine with the proper (mythic) status. As to Nu-Hatta, he spoke these words after the events of the Nerevarine. Since the Nerevarine is a "letter written in uncertainty". i.e. that his actions cannot be determined exactly (for example, which answer the Nerevarine gave to Dagoth Ur), his quote does imho not prove that all other failed incarnates are Nerevar's soul, too. And Cavern of the Incarnate may be semantics and it sounds cool.
The Failed Incarnates share a bond with the Nerevarine, no doubt, because they walked a part of the same path of prophecy. I still highly doubt that this makes them Nerevar - especially since none of them fulfilled all the required steps to actually be called Nerevarine.

On another tangent, to support my claim of the Nerevarine deciding whether he is Nerevar Reborn or not, here's a quote:


But now, Merry Christmas!

There are two things that surprise me. Firstly: that there are still unscrubbed 07 threads. Secondly: that you had enough of a memory of the thread to dig it out.

Yea, that's why they're 'Failed' Incarnates, they're incarnates that didn't succeed. They were "called to the prophecies" and "entered the path of the Nerevarine", but as you said being the Nerevarine and being Nerevar Reborn are separate things - they don't have to "fulfill all the required steps" to be Nerevar, they have to fulfill the steps to complete the prophecy and become the Nerevarine. Being Nerevar doesn't guarantee success, Vivec even says so.

If they're not incarnates then why are they called such (and even refer to themselves as such), afterall, being called by (or even completing) the prophecy in itself does not make you Nerevar Incarnate. That Vivec refers to Nerevar coming multiple times is simply validation.

That isn't what's being argued. :poke:

Maybe they're both, or neither, at the same time even. Or some are Nerevar and some were just called by the prophecy...

If the player could be either one why can't they? :touched:

:turtle: