It recently occurred to me that there isn't much of a plausible way for the ghosts/spirits of the failed incarnates such as Peakstar to still be in the Cavern of the Incarnate if souls are recycled in the Dreamsleeve. Wouldn't her soul and those of the other failed incarnates be the exact same soul as the player character's soul, and therefore should not be able to physically exist as separate entities with which he/she can interact much less hand him/her items?

It's all Nerevar's soul, correct? Peakstar was Nerevar reborn, as was Ane Teria, Conoon Chodala, Erur-Dan, Hort Ledd and Idrenie Nerothan. These people all existed during different time periods, and all had the soul of Indoril Nerevar, but failed in their task so his soul was sent back to Aetherius to be recycled again.

Or is there something about souls and identities that I am missing here? Help me fill in the gaps and explain how it's possible for one incarnation of Nerevar to be talking to previous incarnations.

Because the Dreamsleeve is a lie?

Or, if you are unwilling to accept this idea, think of it this way. Instead of thinking in terms of literal spiritual reincarnation, Nibani Maesa tells you that you are not the Nerevarine but can become it. You do this by mantling Nerevar, by uniting the Ashlanders and Houses in battle as a nation, just like he did.

doods, like, Azura keeps thems in her spacious, dank cavern, not the dreamsleeve. Its possible to talk to failed Nerevars, because you took Moon and Star, which allowed you to talk to other yous.

I assume along the line that these people were hand pick my Azura, which she would consider the chosen to be a potential to become like that of Nerevar. I would also assume that Azura kept the souls of the failed incarnates as a reminder/example of why they fail in the first place.

So you're saying the incarnation is not complete until all trials are successfully completed? That makes sense, I guess. So maybe those people weren't incarnates at all, hence the "failed".

You can have dialogue because they are you, Nerevar. You've failed many times before, but now you succeed. It's no different than talking to yourself.

From my understanding from previous threads, Azura somehow is able to manipulate Nerevar's Soul. Does she know its exact whereabouts and into which body it goes? Or, does she toss it in the Dreamsleeve and then track down the top five people who exhibit Nerevar-like behavior, pick one, and send him/her off on the prophecy path?

You're talkin' to yourself.

Death is a consequence of Variable Fate.

Blah, blah, blah....

Is it not possible that they're just ghosts, like every other ancestor ghost in the game? Except given 'human form' by the devs for poetic effect?

Nah. You're talking to yourself.

Me or the Nerevarine?

That the Nerevarine is talking to himself/herself makes sense to me. But I also wonder if the Failed Incarnates had a portion of Nerevar's soul instead of all of it.

Perhaps they weren't the one, but simply those who fit the signs. Hence why they failed.

I don't wanna get into this in-depth, but in TES, any soul could already be considered a portion of a greater, universal soul (which is hypothesized to be collected in the Dreamsleeve- think: a drop of water=soul; lake=greater soul/Dreamsleeve). This idea has connections to achieving CHIM and the dreaming godhead concept, etc etc. If you got questions, PM me (or one o' the other, more senior lore-buffs who probably know more than I do :bowdown: ).



Possible, but I think the reason they were chosen by Azura was because they did have Nerevar's soul (or technically, they were Nerevar, but in a different body and mind). They were incarnations, but were not Nerevarines. To be the incarnate of Nerevar is to have the same soul as him. To be the Nerevarine is to fulfill the prophesy. Being the incarnation of Nerevar and being the Nerevarine are two separate, but related, concepts.

Farthermore, I belive the "soul" part of them was gone. Azura, with her Daedric awesomeness, managed to separate the thoughts and Ideas from Nevarar's soul and store them. They could have easily been re-animated by her for the short time you are in the cavern of the incarnate.

Maybe they went to Azura's domain when they died, and then Azura piped 'em back to the cavern as needed. Frankly I think the whole reincarnation and prophecy thing is all an Azuran trick anyway.

While the soul remains the same, you have to remember that each individual had a conscience. essentially. While they had the same soul, they all had different minds. It is possible that all the different minds remained with the moon and star, bound within it(or something like that).

That is basically what I said, except much shorter.

Only read first post.

My assumption was always that they weren't the Nerevarine, and that's why they failed. They fit some of the parts of the prophecy, but since they weren't Nerevar Reborn, they couldn't do all of the things they have too.

Though the more mind-screwy explanation of the Nerevarine talking to past incarnations of the same soul or something could work too,

They were Nerevar Incarnate, they just didn't succeed, hence why they were "failed" and not "false". If they were not incarnates they would not be referred to as such, nor would there be reason for them to be honored with a place in the Cavern of the Incarnate.

As to why they failed, they failed because Vivec didn't let them succeed:

"You alone, though you come again and again, can unmake him. Whether I allow it is within my wisdom."http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml

"If there is to be an end I must be removed. The ruling king must know this, and I will test him. I will murder him time and again until he knows this.http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml

Vivec says that Nerevar will be incarnated 'again and again' (and that Vivec will murder him 'time and again') - its up to Vivec to allow his success.

Luagar, because I trust in your wisdom I want to ask you your personal opinion about how and why the earlier incarnates like Peakstar were able to retain their earthly memories and possessions to give to the Player Character.

Do you believe it's as other posters said and you're actually speaking to yourself in some kind of demented multiple personality conference?

BINGO! Case closed.

And in this case Vivec "allowing me to succeed" consisted of me pressing my foot against his throat until he gave me what I needed. :mohawk:

:turtle:

If you break it down it is correct in one way or another and it's really the only theory that accounts for all the information. We know that Nerevar has been reincarnated more than once, not only does Vivec inform us of this in the Sermons but its also implied (as I said in my previous post) by them being called 'failed' rather than 'false' and by the very fact that they're in the Cavern of the Incarnate. You are the Nerevar Incarnate that [presumably] succeeded, they're the one's that didn't. In this sense, it would be accurate for you to mod your previous characters that died into the Cavern.


The only decent alternate explanation is the only that was hinted at by L_N and a few others, that they are there on the merit that they mantled Nerevar to some degree but not fully, that they failed at the prophecy and so weren't really the Nerevarine but get a silver star for effort. The problem with this comes when you begin to look at the nature of mantling versus reincarnation. More to the point is this quote from Nu-Hatta:

"Tiber Septim: "The Stormcrown manted by way of the fourth: the steps of the dead. Mantling and incarnation are separate roads; do not mistake this. The latter is built from the cobbles of drawn-bone destiny. The former: walk like them until they must walk like you. This is the death children bring as the Sons of Hora."

Nerevarine: "Pantheon by incarnation, as all alive now know."http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/nu-hatta.shtml

Nu-Hatta points out the Nerevarine is incarnate and notes that incarnation and mantling are not the same thing, they are separate roads. Given this information I go on the assumption that all those souls in the Cavern are Nerevar's, the same soul, just as if they were failed characters of my own. I wouldn't call it a multiple-personality conference, its more akin to your past self coming to give you aide against your enemy.