Wouldn't work. You are daedric, Akatosh is aedroth and Talos is Tiber/Wulf/Zurin ascended. Plus, Talos really isn't an aedra, he's just the step in for Shezarr. Still a god though. Also, killing Akatosh wouldn't be a good idea, even if possible.

Other than that, it just can't happen.

Remember, what you should focus on is this:
1) Did X god give a portion or all of their body to create Mundus?
- If yes, it's an aedra.
- If no, proceed to question 2

2) Is X god living in Oblivion?
- If yes, it's a daedric prince
- If no, proceed to question 3

3) Is X god living in the Aetherius?
- If yes, it's most likely Magnus, otherwise the guys who followed him are known as the Magna-Ge. To note, Merida used to be one of these, till she consorted with "illicit spectra" and was cast out by her father, Magnus, and now resides in Oblivion.
- If no, then you have something like Trinimac (pre-Malacath), Talos, and, possibly, Shor/Lorkhan/Shezarr.

That's still rhetoric. I'm looking for physical, causal relationships occurring within time and space, not meta-philosophical entity association. What was the chain of events? And what after? And by the center of the Wheel, you mean Nirn? How do you ascend to a point you and all mortals are currently occupying?

Kirkbride wrote Arcturian Heresy, to map the sequence of Tiber's ascension. That's your cue.


Chim.

I only recently learned to appreciate the wonderfulness of The Arcturian Heresy; both that and Five Songs of King Wulfharth

The only bone I have to pick with Heresy is that it says Tiber lives a long life and dies the richest man to ever live. It never really touches on his ascension, other than the fact that he activates Numidium.

And didn't MK state at one time that no one or nothing has ever achieved CHIM? Lorkhan had come the closest.

It's not really that Tiber ascended in the time line presented in Heresy but merely that he traded a lot of hats and masks, occasionally dropping one for another to pick up and wear.

It's kind of interesting that many players and NPCs actually believe the Nine Divines just don't exist, even though its often emphasized that they simply don't have the raw power of Daedra and are unable to perform the same miracles with the same regularity. It's a terrible predicament being a priest trying to inspire faith when you know full well your nine gods can just barely take on one heathen god. bliviongate:

Vivec achieved CHIM. No one achieved Amaranth.

Yes. The historic Tiber is eclipsed by the mythos he engineered. (New metaphysics needed to be woven with Daggerfall's Tiber lore, so MK writes Heresy. The Atmoran Tiber becomes Pocket Guide propaganda, while Hjalti ascends.)

Lady N, doesn't Sermon 15 imply Vivec had become Amaranth, with Nerevar's completion of prophesy?

The ruling king will remove me, his maker. This is the way of all children. ...

This magic I give to you: the world you will rule is only an intermittent hope and you must be the letter written in uncertainty.

The completion of the prophesy does not make the Nerevarine a transcendent being though. I was referring to a statement by MK that said no one had gone beyond CHIM yet in a thread a while back.

The battle with Ur below the mountain parallels the brother-battle; Nerevar meets the goddess, returns with the boon, and heals the surface-world. His prophesied apotheosis has been realized. This magic I give to you: ... you must be the letter written in uncertainty. The Father (Vivec) is vindicated. The stages of the Monomyth are fulfilled. I don't understand why he's right.

I don't consider the defeat of Dagoth Ur as the final act of the Nerevarine, thats all. In a sense, hes mirroring Nerevar backwards - the battle at Red Mountain was Nerevar's last act, but the Nerevarine's first. The fact that the Nerevarine left for Akavir after Morrowind (just as Nerevar did with Vivec in sermon 17) echoes this. In other words, the Nerevarine may be Nerevar reborn, but he has yet to become the ruling king. Furthermore, I'm not sure that the Nerevarine's ascension would automatically grant Vivec the Amaranth, though I admit I don't fully understand the distinction.

When did that happen? I thought the whole idea of CHIM was that it was impossible to achieve.

Possible. Hard, but possible. You just need realize you are all, but also say I AM ME!!!!!! Really loud too.

If anyone could have done it, it would have been Lorkhan.

Come to think of it, why did Lorkhan need to build a plane of existance to achieve CHIM? Was it a starting point, like a diving board or something?

Maybe he did achieve CHIM but in a different direction. He said "I am I am they are we" and his self splintered across the stage he set for himself with bits of him being bound to it (Shor) while others would stay in Aetherius (Talos). And still the splintering continues. Given enough time, the cascading identity of Lorkhan will resemble Sithis and a single, perfect reflection of Lorkhan (Anuiel) will arise and yet another plane will spring forth from the center.

They say Shor failed so others would know what not to do. And to men, Shor created Mundus as an act of mercy, of which, V-man agrees.

Who said that? Vivec?

It would be hard to get into the mind of a god, especially before rational thought existed. Also, that mentality seems almost like hindsight bias. Ultimately though, everything is dependent on whether or not Lorkhan was acting selflessly as a benevolent creator or solely for his own goals.

If he was benevolent, then I'd totally buy the "failed on purpose" explanation. By the way; how exactly did he fail? What went wrong there? Was he going to succeed, and was that why the Aedra killed him? In that sense, how did he manage to get betrayed in the first place if Akatosh was his aspect. Why then would the Aedra follow an insane god, especially those et'ada known for their logicality.

Maybe it was the insanity that caused Akatosh to do the work by himself. Madness only existed after the creation of Mundus, correct? He failed the first rule of CHIM, I suppose. He lost "I" to another self that said "I am" too.

Red Mountain was where the Tribunal succeeded in the Psijic Endeavor.

Lorkhan http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-monomyth-altmeri-heart-world. He failed Chim, because he never overcame his nature. However, where Lorkhan's nature impeded him, http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-spirit-nirn.

Thanks for linking those, Iconoklast. Didn't want to go through so much text

You're welcome.

I'll add - I think forum regulars know this - Chim is existence beyond the ken of mortal minds. The bodies of Tiber and the Tribunal can rot while their soul is free.

Because one with Chim is aware of so much more, there is so much more to threaten them. (Great power, great responsibility.) The Gods will try them, and the Demons will tempt them. Those scholars that can perceive its shape regard it as a Crowned Tower that threatens to break apart at the slightest break in concentration.

Yet Talos, the embodiment of the glory and achievements of Man and the Empire, was clearly unafraid of the Empire's demise.

No, and Vivec didn't fear the Temple's collapse, the Tribunes' deaths, or Red Year. He needed to make peace with worse. Chim is cosmos, there's no tolerance for fear.

When Talos Stormcrown became Talos the Divine, I think his imperialistic ego died away. Otherwise we would have seen a gigantic, multi-headed monster with crowns on each head stomping Vivec city and Alinor the second he ascended.

Still though, he makes several further incarnations back into Nirn to tie up lose ends. Then the Oblivion crisis happens and the Septim line ends along with Chim-el Adabal, the only anchor Talos still has to Nirn. How do we know that Talos hasn't achieved Chim when it was broken?

I hate to sound ignorant, but where is it stated, or extrapolated, that Talos was bound to the Amulet?

ya, the amulet is much, much older than Hjati.

nd is my ealier breakdown of the walking ways in this thread accurate?

The closest I come is he was on one end of the Enantiomorph with Akatosh at the other... but yeah you're right. Chim El-adabal was the tool of the Empire's symbolic dominance over Tamriel (being the stone of White-Gold). Tiber may have wielded it, but Talos was a stand-in for Shezzar/Lorkhan/Man's accomplishments, not his right of dominance.

I have no idea why my last post begins with no. Wait. That isn't a no, it's a yes.


It's the Oversoul of Emperors.


I thought I'd share this, since it is fundamental:

The hero... discovers and assimilates his opposite (his own unsuspected self) either by swallowing it or by being swallowed. One by one the resistances are broken. ... Then he finds that he and his opposite are not of differing species, but one flesh. ... Can the ego put itself to death? For many-headed is this surrounding Hydra... - The Monomyth


Altmeri charity:

"To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison.

"To achieve this goal, we must:

"1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.*

"2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.

"3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once traveled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit."

The blanket death of man and Talos is the Altmeri method of assimilation. Nirn is purgatory: dominate Man, purge the flesh, and there will be only the immovable center. The Elder way may be holocaust, but, after all: reach heaven by violence.


Talos isn't dead, but his heads are rolling.