Third Rock From The Sun, a wonderful show from the 90's(?) where a spaceship with 4 aliens landed on earth and they "try" to fit in. In one episode, dike, the leader of the aliens learns about https://youtu.be/TVD5wvJ1ru4?t=1m54s. Basically, he sets the "tip pile" on the table and as the dinner progresses, he subtracts from the tip if the service is lacking. He will also add to it if the service goes above what is expected.

I do the same when I play an RPG. I have a "phantom number" in my head. Whenever I have to "head cannon" something, or make my imagination override what the game is telling me, I subtract from this number. I do take into account the limitations of computer programming and give games some leeway.

Now, I realize that roleplaying is not what most players seek these days, as they look for their next random target to kill, but I wonder how well RPGs would be received if more players played this way

I'm the exact opposite of you. We could not possibly be more opposite. The more a game prevents me from using my imagination, the less I like it. I don't like feeling as though I am just an actor in a developer's movie...which is how I usually feel when I play a Bioware or Obsidian game. I like to have room to invent, to improvise, to tell my own stories using the game assets provided by the developers. If I can't do that, a roleplaying game has nothing to offer me.

Sorry AlB, I'm all with Pseron on this. I accept old games to tell me that my chaman is not allowed to wear heavy armour or use a bow because that's how they were made but I would find this unbearable in modern games. The less restrictions the devs impose on us, the more creative we can be. The more difficult the games become too because nothing prevents you from making a "wrong" choice. Hence the common "restartitis" plague striking Elder Scrolls games players nowadays.

Let me preface this by saying that I hate when people use a genre as an honorific or a pejorative, instead of simply a description... "not a REAL role-playing/grand strategy game/prog rock album" or "just a shooter/platformer/action movie", talk like that just grinds my gears. And I'm fairly generous about what constitutes "art", or what falls into a genre. For RPGs, I generally have a vague set of criteria that doesn't all have to be met: emphasis on leveling and character building? character customization? lots of different weapons and armors with different abilities we can equip on our character? player direction/collaboration in the narrative (multiple endings, dialog with personality, optional content/quests, etc)?

Every Elder Scrolls and Fallout game are RPGs, and Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Witcher... but so are the Final Fantasy games, Chrono Trigger (one of my all-time favorite RPGs), Kingdom Hearts, Undertale... Neoquest. That's why distinctions like action-RPG, tactical RPG, or JRPG are so nice.

Anyway, I can't say I agree with taking points away if you have to headcanon or use your imagination. It's not important to me that a story spells *everything* out to me, and a lot of games (particularly Bethesda games) are designed for us to project our own interpretations into the game anyway. Also don't see what that has to do with the RPG genre specifically...

I am in the middle.

I like the detailed but still largely ambiguous Morrowind style.

I don't like it when I have no info to draw from to complete a quest. Skyrim is this when it is not like Oblivion.

And Oblivion, where the quests could be super imaginative but the delivery is a theme park attraction. The other opposite.

Not really sure what that means, tbh...

For me, I guess I like a blend of traditional dice-rolling/stats and my character taking on a specific role. For example, my Oblivion character is an honorary guard in Bruma and at times he dons the Bruma guard outfit and mixes between patrolling the town and guarding the north gate.

Maybe that falls under 'sandboxing' though, but since it′s his role then in my head it′s roleplaying

For me it's the "fun" factor. Am I have fun playing this game? I have no criteria for what I need in a role playing game.

I don't know - I play a variety of different genres. And specifically with RPGs I enjoy a wide variety of different sorts of RPGs. There's more than one way to skin a cat, after all - I don't think all roleplaying games should be attempting to all tick the same boxes. So in a lot of cases if there's something I enjoyed in one game I don't discount another game for not trying to include that. I actually prefer if the RPG industry tries to provide a broad spectrum of approaches. Some go a bit more open-ended, and others try to tell a more direct narrative. I like both, though - I enjoy something like Mass Effect for a number of reasons and I also enjoy Skyrim for different reasons.

I think I enjoy too many different games for different reasons that it'd be impossible to try and apply an overarching approach to my own critiques of them. When I was in art school, art criticism was broken down into two steps - what was the artist trying to accomplish and how do you feel about that goal, and how competently did the artist accomplish that goal? So that tends to be how I frame my thoughts when I'm thinking about a game from a critical sense.

This.

To me, Freedom is key for an open-world roleplaying game. The less freedom I have, the less I'll like it. I have fun roleplaying different characters I create out of my mind and on my own, not by creating characters based on what is given to me at the beginning or following a set of guidelines.

Good point

I'm with you. I think too many people get caught up in what something "should" be (or worse, could be!) and lose sight of what's actually in front of them. Gods knows if I looked to Daggerfall or Fallout 2 for the same things I got out of Skyrim or Fallout 4, I would have had a horrible time. Happens in other mediums, too - a lot of people looked to Drive for a film about heists and car-chases (thank you, misleading trailer) and instead what they got was a dreamy, atmospheric sort of film with brief bursts of hyper-violence. And I loved it. You can't go in with preconceived expectations.

As an aside? Don't do this in real life. It's vile behavior, even ignoring the part where the US restaurant industry is set up on the assumption of tips as part of salary - it isn't a "bonus" for good service, it's the server's pay. (Most states in the US allow food servers to be paid far below minimum wage, because they get tips. Like, less than $3 an hour.)

Yeah. Am I having fun? about covers it. I don't stress out too much over definitions. (After all, by the RPG definition of the hardcoe RPGers on this forum, 95% of the digital RPGs I've played over the past 30 years don't count. )

I'm with the both of you. I love having a multitude of *different* types of RPGs available. I don't want Bethesda to turn into Bioware (or Obsidian) or vice versa, because all the awesome differences between them would be gone. I'm also glad that RPGs aren't being strict about making sure they fit into the "one true RPG" category, since adding flavors of other types of games like FPS or simulation or adventure/mystery make the games more fun. I don't feel the need to try to shove a unique snowflake into a standardized round RPG hole.

Customization

Freedom

Dialogue Complexity

I could not agree more with these two post. The more the game restricts my creativity and imagination the less I will enjoy it. The reason why I play Bethesda games is simply because I can craft my own story with my own characters.

Yeah, same.

Although I do tend to be a bit disappointed if I play a modern western RPG when charisma/speech is barely used in the dialogue to persuade and stuff, and the quests are linear and doesn't offer multiple ways to finish them.

I like this.

There are so many different types of RPGs, and so many different ways to play them. But as long as I'm having fun, the game is a winner.

I both agree and disagree with this statement. My wife was a waitress and was a damned good one, she certainly deserved a good tip, but in the same breath she worked with some really abysmal waitresses that would almost never check up on their tables or refill drinks, often relying on the other waiters/waitresses to pick up their slack, yet still claimed the tip, and that's complete BS. If a person is a svcky waiter/waitress, they absolutely do not deserve a tip. Eventually they'll get the point and either get better, or they'll find another job.

I agree here. If a waitress or waiter gives me at least decent service I'll give a tip. If not, no tip. To be fair though, bad service for me has been extremely rare and far between. I've had service which was so good in addition to a good tip I have also called the manager to let them know how much I enjoyed the service.

This is quite different from what I am talking about. When my character has no magic ability and becomes archmage (as an example), this is where I have to "override" what the game is telling. Then I subtract from the pool. It's not about using my imagination, it is more about the game allows my imagination to fit with what the game is telling me happens.

In Skyrim, the Peace Conference added to the pool. Afterwards, when nothing changed (aside from 2 Jarl changes) and the world makes no reference to what happened, I subtract. When Argonians and Khajit are "supposedly shunned", yet my characters of these races experience none of this, then my imagination is overridden by the game.

This what I'm talking about, not the basic use of imagination. Here I agree with you 100%. It is when the game "clashes" with my imagination that I have troubles

Isn't rolepleyaing a set of "restrictions" set by the player? Otherwise, why doesn't your character use "the best" items, or methods in the game? Isn't roleplaying when one considers their character's concept over game mechanics? Or am I off on this? Why aren't all your characters exactly the same, using the best of what the game has to offer? It's allowed, after all.

Or, is the difference only who gets to set those restrictions?

If a game does not even react to your choices, why bother? We can be as creative as we want to, but the game cares/reacts not. It is when these collide that I subtract from the pool.

[EDIT]

Just had another thought. If I want to play a character that despises or fears magic, the game does not allow me to. In VANILLA Skyrim, every character ever made starts with flames and heal spells. This is where the game clashes with my imagination.

(I better read on as I think I did not communicate my thoughts very well )

I would hope this is a given, for any genre. Do people really play games they have no fun in?

Labels are set to let players have an idea of what to expect. If I want an FPS experience, I do not look to RPGs. Labels help me choose which game to load up. If a game labels itself Puzzle Game and is more action combat than puzzles, what's the point? It would be nice if I had absolutely zero expectations from any game I loaded up, but unfortunately, I do

@Kiralyn, don't get me started on tipping, or nowadays, MANDATORY tipping, figured in automatically with each bill. I am NOT the employer, responsible for the employees income. I am a customer paying for a service, which is based on efficiency and personality. I would love to do tipping the way dike in the video. Tipping is NOT a fact. It is a BONUS for good service.

It seems my presentation went over like a lead balloon. Oh well...

I evaluate rpgs on a number of things but for me the most important (after am I having fun, that should go without saying) is the world. Is it interesting, original, plausible? If it is I can forgive a game a lot of other flaws. After that is how much freedom I'm given in creating and developing a character. I don't mind if my orc will never be quite as good a mage as an elf would've been so long as I have the option to try.

Progression is a huge one for me. Not only is freedom important, but the progression into who you are and what you'll become is a huge deal to me in RPGs.

What you are talking about is not some non-RPG vs. RPG thing. No one but Bethesda would even dare to pull that kind of blatant nonsensical stuff.(after their commercial success some might... Still requires extreme self-ignorance and thoughtlessness)

I mean the criticism shouldn't be "this is not RPG like" but "this is straight up [censored]."

Because when we frame it this way, it is easily dismissed. It is not right in any context. RPG or not.

BGS is lowering the standards to dangerous levels where we tolerate their blunders as just "non-RPG".