I like alot of what you have to say, OP. But i dont think some have to be removed, just an option to turn it off.

I agree completely with you. However, I find it weird how people still try to ignore the fact that there are, believe it or not, gamers that want more of a challange and more reasons to spend more time on their favorite games, hence the term "HARD-core gamers". The people who refuse to put much thought into a game (being lazy, in my opinion an excuse for being stupid) and just have the goal of beating the main objective to "win" the game are known as casual gamers... There is a difference. I'm not saying I just defined the two terms, but that's how I see them.

Yes, I agree with anything that you wrote, especially with what I colored, that was a good point that I did not remember, until now.


I have written in my previous post, why I classified two groups of players, so one group want more challenge and meaningful in-game explanation for their actions, and I call them Hard-core role players, and other do not like that kind of challenge and want instant gratification, and it is not important to them that they totally bypass some chores and use the UI short-cuts to achieve their goal, easily and with no cost, and I call them casual.

There might be better names for the groups, but I do not know them yet.


No, I said that I'm lazy, which I'm, and if there is an easier option, I gradually get drawn to it, even if in the long time, it totally destroy my joy in the game, and my connection with it.

In Oblivion, after several characters, I really felt like an automaton that jumps from a quest target to another, surfing the UI interface, and methodically finishes the tasks before me, but In Morrowind, I lived in the game world, and still do whenever I reinstall the game and make a new character.

Sorry about your decision, and you might actually have missed some interesting ideas, you know.


You get my meaning quite well, pal. :good job:


No body wrote about removing a feature, but implementing it in the actual game environment instead of the UI and giving them meaningful explanation and a bit of cost so that they would not be totally cost-free and all encompassing, rendering other methods obsolete.


Stupidity might be the case for some, but IMHO generally we can settle for the term of casual, and yes, I chose the terms of Hard-Core and Casual, because I could not find better terms, so I might change those terms if I find better ones.

Sigh, calling people stupid isn't going to get them to work toward a compromise, it only makes them angry and encourages dismissive (and I guess 'stupid') arguments like "if you don't like it don't use it" or "We don't care about your roleplaying issues" or "No! You guys are stupid because of x, y, and z!" etc.

If you can't take the time to try and understand their perspective, how can you expect them to consider yours?

If people didn't have so much pride in their gaming styles this would really not be that complicated.

I totally agree with you, and the whole thread is about a way that incorporated the "easier" methods, in-game instead of UI, and giving them, immersive in-game explanation, and a bit of acceptable cost, for the reasons that I have already explained.

I just don't understand why some people want to turn Skyrim into a "Medieval Reality Simulator" rather than an enjoyable game.

Immersion is nice and all, but wouldn't you rather they focused on fun content rather than seemingly pointless NPC interaction?

(Before I'm mugged by immerson [censored], note that NPC interaction is good and needed, but there's a point at which it just becomes needlessly detailed to a point where it infringes on other features, dev time isn't infinite)

Well isn't this a change. Someone explaining something through reason/logic rather than emotions. I see what your saying and what I still think hasn't and won't ever change. Call me stubborn all you want. But I didn't say I wouldn't ever compromise with other gamers about any paticular issue. Just stated my opinion with full knowledge of how little anyone's oppinion means to other people and the developers... I was not implying the "if you don't see something the way I do your stupid". I was calling people who play games just to "win" and not have fun stupid. So to me, it defeats the purpose of video gaming all together. In my opinion again, most casual gamers fall into this category.

This assumes that no one can have fun in such a thing. Just because it doesn't sound fun to you doesn't mean it isn't fun for someone.

By the Nine, I do so hate being called a casual fan because I liked the quest marker and such. >.>

Since you don't care about the immersion features it makes sense you wouldn't understand, but just because they seem unnecessary to you doesn't mean they will take forever to implement. For example, take the Oblivion Fast Travel feature, and keep it exactly as it is but only require the PC to be sitting on a horse to use it. That is just one possible compromise, but the point is it really doesn't have to take much time at all.

Also, we all have biased definitions of "an enjoyable game"

@WII10441: You said: "Just stated my opinion with full knowledge of how little anyone's oppinion means to other people and the developers..." Just wanted to point out the obvious and say that's some heavy cynicism, makes me wonder why you bother to offer your opinion if you have such low expectations for the people reading it. :ermm:

OK, help me out here, as I do not want to call you casual.

Let's say that I want to call a group by a name to be able to point to them in my arguments, and related to the other group, they do not like the kind of challenge that the other group like, and it is not important to them if they bypass some in-game actions by the help of UI short-cuts in order to quickly reach the target, and they do not like being lost in the game, and do not like to think over the directions given to them by the quest givers, and search over the clues in the actual game environment, but like to have a pointer on the HUD that always points them to the right direction.

What should I call that group?

Preschool children, mentally challenged, hopefully advlts with little time on their hands?

I'm very aware how horrible of a person I am. But I'm honest...

I know they are necessary for the sake of indication, but I simply hate labels. Especially ones like "casual, harcore, etc..." I don't feel like the fact that I used, and loved the quest marker in Oblivion makes me casual. I still know loads about the lore, have played all four of the main games, and love the franchise. I suppose "casual" is the accepted term around here for people who liked the quest marker and Oblivion-style fast travel, i just don't like it. Besides, I only use Oblivion's fast travel if I'm just feeling really lazy. Most of the time I don't use it anyway. The quest marker was a necessity in Oblivion because NPCs didn't give specific directions and you couldn't have found your destinations without it. It's probably a necessary sacrifice since it's much easier with text-based dialogue to give in-depth directions. Maybe in Skyrim you can have in-depth instructions in the quest log like Morrowind, even if the quest giver didn't specifically say all of it. :shrug:

Well, enough rambling. All I have to say that's truly productive for this thread is that I feel like Bethesda is really trying to please both Morrowind-style fans and Oblivion-style fans with the confirmation of both Oblivion fast travel and a carriage system. Also that spell Todd used in the demo that made a trail to direct him through the cave sounds good. People don't have to use the spell after all. I'm just hoping that Bethesda settles this in Skyrim so we can't stop having to worry about it.

@ wll10441 that's not being honest that's being cynical and rude.

Nothing, don't group them...

there is no cake... the cake is a lie!

I know exactly what you are saying and placing a label on a group is not a simple task and each player can have several different aspect, that might even contradict each other.

Especially as in Oblivion, some of those aspects were forced on us, as you pointed out, and some where too easily accessible and costless to be ignored, and this is the exact reason that I have started this thread.

All that I say is that if they want to please both groups of people, they should change the Oblivion side a bit to remove some of the negative sides, because the Morrowind side has no draw-backs other than the time and effort it takes to implement, but the Oblivion side would bring its inborn-draw backs with it and would still make problems for the "Harder to Please" group.

I mean it is too easy and costless and would gradually engulf my lazy self and render the other options obsolete, and also it was totally implemented in the UI, and had no apparent meaning in the actual game, so I started this thread, and pointed out the problems and I think suggested a good solution, IMHO, for the problem at hand.

But unfortunately started it with words that distracted a lot of people from the actual reason behind the creation of the thread.

Putting aside the labels, I do think you are on the right track to appeasing both sides. On that, I give you thumbs up.

Thanks, pal. :tops:

Will you marry me. This is the greatest idea ever!!!!