How to have a cake and eat it too.
As the result of a marriage between Morrowind and Oblivion.

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The Problem:

There has been a lot of discussions and let's say battles of words regarding fast travel, compass markers and the like.

One side the campaign are the relatively hard-boiled players who are ready to sacrifice a bit of their time and effort and perform chores in the game environment for some additional believability of actions and immersion.

The other side are relatively easy going and casual players who do not want to sacrifice their joy and time to perform chores for that reason and prefer to skip those actions and jump right to the conclusion.

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In Morrowind, BGS provided for one side only and in Oblivion they provided for the other side only, and it seems that with Skyrim they want to provide both methods for both sides.

But it seems that it would not be going to satisfy all the players, because if including both methods, in a toggle-able way was enough, and would satisfy both sides, then all the threads arguing about the problems of each side would not have happened.

Here, I like to reach to an evolution of the combination of both methods, like a chemical reaction if you like.

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The Morrowind method is all about in-game facilities and activities for the actions, thus you talk to a vendor to fast travel and you look for land marks and quest notes for direction.

Oblivion method is all about UI short-cuts, to make it easier for the players who do not like the chores of in-game activities, so you open the UI map and click on it to jump to the destination, or you look at the markers placed right on the HUD to know where you should go.

Oblivion way would make the actions a lot easier and thus attracts the players who like to have fun playing without the additional chores that hard-core players feel that should be performed to keep the sense of belief and immersion.

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My Approach:

I'm a hard-core player and feel that the Oblivion method is a bit like cheating, and so easy, it's like a drug and attracts my lazy self to use them more and more, but in the other hand, like drugs, have their negative effect and drag me more and more out of the actual game environment into the UI, and lessen my immersion in the game more and more until I lose it entirely, and it has actually happened to me with Oblivion, as I lost my connection to my in-game characters.

But there are both types of players, and I have already seen the map and compass markers and heard about the availability of both types of fast travel, so I thought there is no denying it and I have to deal for the casual side, so how do we merge both sides in a way that would reduce the negative effects of the result, and there came an idea!

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The only downside of the Morrowind's in-game methods would be the actual time and effort it would take to implement in-game traveling facilities, and recognizable land marks and detailed quest target directions and the like, and as it is already confirmed that the time and effort would be spent on those items, thus we do not have any problem here.

The downside of the Oblivion's method was that it was too easy to use without any type of restriction and cost, and also it was completely implemented in the UI, which is a layer between the players and the actual in-game environment where their character exists, and the implementation did not have any visible and immersive in-game explanation.

So how do we reduce those negative sides of the UI methods, and merge them into the actual game environment, with an explanation, but keep the basic philosophy almost intact?

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3d Map:

First of all, I have to say that I love the new 3d map design of Skyrim, and I can give it an in-game meaning and immersive explanation:

It can be some sort of inborn Dovahkiin power.

You send out your semi-draconic soul upward while looking at the ground from a dragon point of view, and can see the world in 3d form, from above, and your soul can roam around the landscape and move up and down to zoom out or in...

As to complete the impression, I think that the center of map view should be sharp, and focused, but around the edges of the screen the view should be foggy, or unfocused, to show that its really some sort of vision, some sort of power that the Dovahkiin has and no other.

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Place Markers:

The next step, is a neat one, and can unify a few aspects of the game into a neat and integrated solution:

The quest target markers and place markers can be the same, and those can be your character's memory of the place that he has actually visited before.

In Oblivion, when a quest target's GPS was set, when it was indoors, and you were outdoors, there was always a visible pointer on the compass that showed you the direction that you had to go to reach the doorsteps of the place that you had to enter to reach the target.

On the other hand, those places generally had a named markers at their doorsteps, that was visible from a mile away, and you could see them, even when you had not visited the place before, but when you visited the place, the marker changed the color to show that it was a visited place, and then you could click on the marker and teleport to it.

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So in Skyrim when a quest target marker is set a few things would happen:

Either the quest giver actually knows the exact place that you have to go and marks it in your map, or you have to actually find the place from the vague directions and the next events that would eventually happen in the quest-line to give you more precise directions.

Like further notes lying beside the deathbed of another victim, or finding more knowledgeable people on the way, and the like, and by finding better directions, you might be able to mark the exact place that you have to visit on your map, or you might still need to find better direction after this stage, and so on...

So when you can actually mark the place on the map, it still does not show on the compass, until you actually visit the place, and after that it can appear on your compass to show that your character can remember where the doorsteps of the place is, but that still would happen within a distance radius limit, and out of that radius, it gradually fades to become totally invisible at a greater radius.

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So if it is your first visit to the place. it's map marker would not show on the compass, but it would show on the map.

But after the first visit to the place, it would show in the compass within a radius limit, to show that your character actually remember the area and knows where is the entrance.

And if your quest target is known to be within that place, the map marker of that place would have different color, so it would stand out on the map, and would stand out on the compass, if you have visited that place before, and would be shown, on the compass after your first visit, and would have different color than the marker for other visited places within the limit radius.

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NPC Guidance:

This way, you would not lose the joy of exploration and finding the new places, and would have the chance to stumble on new places, but when you actually find a place, you would have
the convenience of knowing where it is and would have the compass marker within the radius limit.

But outside the limit, or if it is the first time, we would not see the compass markers, but we can have other means to guide us to the target place, so in some cases the quest starts with vague directions to begin with, and it is the responsibility of the quest designer to guide you toward your target with further events and encounters.

But after you actually know the name of the place that you have to visit, or you would have the general idea of the place, there can be an additional actual topic of conversation with people that you meet in the way to guide you to the target.

Your first level topics with NPCs would usually have an item called "Directions.", that would appear for the NPCs that actually like you enough to want to help you out, so that we would have a good reason to work on our speechcraft, to get better directions from the people that we meet.

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When you select the "Directions." topic, a sub-menu of topics would appear, and the first few items would usually be quest related, and the next ones would be area related and faction related and so on...

So a quest might have optional side objectives with different targets, or the main subjective can have several targets, so those would appear in the first few lines.

The area might add its own direction questions to the list, like these for towns:

• Can you guide me toward a tavern around here?
  
• Would you please show me the way to the Smithy, please?
  
• Where is the nearest guard tower, please?
  
• Where can I sell some general stuff around here?
  
• Do you know where one can buy some potions?
  
• ...

Or like these in the wilderness:

• Can you show me where the nearest settling is?
  
• Would you guide me to a nearby shelter, please?
  
• Where is the nearest tavern around here?
  
• Do you know an interesting place around here?
  
• ...

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If you are within the walls of a guild that you are a member of, a guild member might have some directions to show you:

• Where is the guild master here?
  
• Do you know where "Hurthgaahr, the blind" is, I mean the smith.
  
• Can you guide me to the altar?
  
• Do you know where I can sleep tonight?
  
• ...

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Example:

Each task that any NPC is attending, has an importance value, and depending on how important you are to the local people, and how much an NPC likes you, the task of talking to you, and the task of guiding you to a direction gets an importance value.

So depending on the difference of the importance between those tasks compared to the current task of the NPC, there might be different scenarios, like these:

The guard has an important job, and you are an elven nobody:
You: Sir!
Guard: Move along citizen, and don't bother a guard in his task.

You are a bit more known in the area:
You: Sir!
Guard: Yes, citizen.
You: Can I ask you a few directions?
Guard: Who do you think I am, your companion?
(You, bribe the guard, and have a few nice words with him)
You: Can I ask you a few directions?
Guard: Why didn't you say so? Go ahead.
You: Where is the nearest tavern around here?
Guard: You should go that way.
You: Thanks. (Then Bribe him yet more and charm him further with nice words)
You: Can I ask you a few directions?
Guard: Of-course, my dear sir, where do you want to go?
You, Do you know a nearby general shop, where I can buy a few items?
Guard: You should go that way, or do you want me to show you the way?
You: Yes, thank you.
Guard: Come with me.
(After a while)
Guard: That's it; I cannot abandon my previous task any more. You should go that way.
OR:
Guard: You see that building? That's what you want. (Pointing toward a building)
OR:
Guard: Here it is. Enter this building. (Standing beside the doorway, and pointing you toward it)

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The Experience:

Here I want to describe how it works:

Each task that an NPC attends can have an importance value, and each new temporary task that happens that requires the attention of the NPC, can have an importance value as well, so if the importance of the new task is higher than the old task, they would abandon the old task and attend to the new one, or attend both, like in the case of conversation.

So when you are new in some place, especially if you are member of a hated elf race, you would not get many options to talk with Nord people around, so your best choice would be the idle people who do not have a job to attend, and the people who do actually seek help from other people. Those would talk to you.

But when your local reputation rises, you will have more and more people who are willing to start a conversation with you, but if you are not a hated race, or the NPC actually has a quest for you, they would talk to you from the beginning.

Jobs like guarding are important, but jobs like traveling are not, and jobs like idling have no importance at all, so traveling people and especially idle people would be more willing to start a conversation, so that you can bribe and charm them until they become willing to guide you to your destination, but as your reputation arises, the willing people to guide you would increase.

Thus at the beginning of the game, you will face some challenges while you try to get out some direction from the people, but after a while, as your local and global reputation arises, it becomes easier and easier, so that you would not get bored with the task.

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The Explaination:

And what happens when someone decide to guide you?

If you ask someone if you can ask some directions, the task has some importance, depending on your reputation and the friendship between you and the NPC, so if the importance of your question surpasses the importance of the current task, the NPC would accept to answer your questions, but if not, then (s)he would refuse to answer them.

When you ask any direction, if the importance of guiding you barely surpasses the importance of the current task, then the NPC would merely point you toward the direction that you should go, but would continue with the old task while keeping the conversation with you.

Unless the target building, person or item is in sight which results in the NPC's pointing the target to you and be done with it.

But if the target is not in sight and your guidance become really more important than the current task, depending on the difference between the importance of the two tasks, the NPC would offer to come along for a definite distance, and the size of that distance depends on the difference between the importance of your guidance and the current task.

So if you reach the target while the NPC is still accompanying you, he would stop and point you toward the target saying that you have reached the target, but if the maximum distance is reached before you reach the target, it would depend if the target is in sight or not.

So if the target is in sight, then the NPC would point you toward it and depart as you finish the conversation, but if the target is still out of sight, then the NPC would point out your next direction to reach the target, and depart afterwards.

And the next direction is calculated like this:

The NPC would mentally continue to go toward the target for several paces, and then mark the position of the place that he would have been if he had paced those steps, and would point toward that marked place, when saying that you should go in that direction.

This way, your guides would not point you directly toward the target, but would point you toward the way that you should follow to reach the target, unless the target is in sight, so that they would point directly toward it.

And it would work for both still and moving targets, without any need for an actual GPS marker anywhere on the screen.

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Quest Targets:

The NPC guidance could help you reach your quest targets as well, like this:

Any time in the quest-line, when you actually know the name of the place that you have to visit next, or you have the general idea of the place, there can be an additional actual topic of conversation with people that you meet in the way to guide you to the target, like these:

• Can you show me where "Erik the lame" lives?
  
• Do you know where the porter around here is?
  
• Do you know where "the blessed altar" is?
  
• Would you show me how to find a "red deer" in this area?
  
• ...

And depending on the situations, they either refuses to help you, point you toward the next general direction, come with you for a while, or until you reach the target and point the target to you.

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Clairvoyance:

You can also use your Clairvoyance power, and get the direction from it, but if I was a developer, I would not have implemented it as a glowing line on the ground, but as a ghostly replica of our character, that would represent our all-knowing semi-draconic, unconscious self, that would appear beside us and guide us toward the target, without words, but with body gestures.

So depending on the power of our spell, the inner self would either appear beside us and point toward the next direction that we should take, or come with us for a while and guide us along, and either we would reach the target and it would stands and points toward it, or stop after a while and point toward the next way that we should take to reach the target, but unless the target is actually in sight, it would only point toward the way to reach it, but not directly toward it.

Just like NPC guidance, but without any spoken words, and the enemies would not see our inner self, and would not react to its existence.

Whenever our guides move ahead and we do not reach them, they would stop in their tracks, and become idle, and the timer would continue to count down, and when we reach them, if the timer had not reached to zero, they would continue to lead us, but if the timer reaches to zero and after a definite while we do not reach them, they would depart, or in the case of Clairvoyance, it would disappear.

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Fast Travel:

The point and click style of fast travel, can have an in-game meaning, and it could be like this:

There can be a brand of powerful magic that could transport the player character and his accompanying party to a new destination, but that would be so complicated that could not be done normally by casting a spell as we like, and would require either a complicated spell written on a scroll, or a powerful "Dragon Shout".

So either we find or buy scrolls that would help us travel to another place, or we learn and cast a "Dragon Shout" that would do the job for us, and in either case we would have three different level of power for the act of magical travel.

• The scroll with the first level of power would be called "The scroll of intervention", or something like that, and also the first level shout, would relocate us to a safer place, so if we are inside a dungeon, then we would be transported to the outside of the entrance, but if we are in the wilderness, we would be transported to the nearest place, marked as safe within a limited radius, or the safest place within that radius.
  
• The scroll with the second level of power would be called "The scroll of town portal", or something like that, and also the second level shout, would open the "3d map" which would represent our mind power to imagine the area around us, and we could select a town or settling that we have visited before, and be teleported to that place. We would appear inside the town in the central square, or in the front of the palace, or in a guild hall that we are a member of, or inside our owned house, or something like that.
  
• The scroll with the third level of power would be called "The scroll of relocation", or something like that, and also the third level shout, would open the "3d map", as our imagination of the world around us, and we could select any place that we have visited before, to instantaneously relocate to that place.

The scrolls could be very rarely found in the loots, but more frequently in the boss loots, and could also be found in the inventory of the magic shops, but the more powerful scrolls are the rarest ones, and the most costly.

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Dragon Shout:

The relocation shout as any other dragon shout would have a cool-down time, and the higher level shouts would have the longer cool-down time.

The Dragon shouts can have different cool-down times depending on their power level, and a shout might have a small cool down time of 0.5 in-game hours for the first level, but 4 hours for the second level and 12 hours for the third level.

But another more powerful shout might have a cool-down time of 4 in-game hours for the first level shout, and 12 hours for the next level, and 36 hours for the third level, like these values:

• 10 in-game minutes - 2 in-game hours
  
• 1 - 12 in-game hours
  
• 4 - 48 in-game hours

And the Relocation Shout can have the cool down values like these:

• 1.5
  
• 9
  
• 36

And if you sleep after you cast a dragon shout, for each hour of sleep, you would replenish like for instance 4 hours of the cool-down time, so after casting the "Town Portal" shout, which is the second level shout, you could sleep for two hours to almost complete the cool down time, and be ready to cast your next shout.

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Conclusion:

This way, you could use Dragon shouts or scrolls for fast travel, which have definite in-game meaning and explanation, and those events would have three level of power, like these:

• The first level would take you to a relatively safe place, nearby, and would cost you the least of all.
  
• The second level would let you to choose a town and settling that you want to relocate to, and would have relatively medium level of cost.
  
• The third level would let you choose any place marker that you have visited before, and relocate you there, with the highest cost level.

And the costs would be the price of the scrolls, or the cool-down time of the shout.

And as you advance your character and could get to higher level places and get higher level loot, you would find or could buy more and better scrolls, so the cost would not seem that much and would become easier as you get stronger.

So in the beginning of the game, you might be forced to walk or ride around a lot, but when you advance your character, you would be able to use fast traveling method more and more as you like, but in the end it would not become completely free and too easy to use, so it would avoid the problem of the previous implementation.

And it would have a valid, in-game meaning, and would be completely immersive, and would show your character's progress, through-out the game.

OK, that's all folks, now let's discuss.

*looks at wall of text* bliviongate:

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! WOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRDDDDDDDDDDSSSSSSSSS

From my skim I'm going to say that you have a few good points such as the directions, I'll read it properly and give it an anolysis later

You know what I don't get? There are quite a number of games out there that do NOT use immediate, map-based fast travel, from any point to any point (e.g. Freelancer. Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood etc.) and those games sometimes still offer the large world which we would expect to see in an Elder Scrolls Game.

Haven't played Freelancer, but Assassin's Creed - Brotherhood was located in a single city (albeit realistically sized), you don't need a fast-travel option in that (however, one was implemented - that underground system, you may have forgotten). TES offers a world that is supposed to be nation-sized.

I don't really like cake,more of a pie or turnover kind of guy.

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1206901-one-thing-i-think-bethesda-doesnt-get-ii/ Pretty much the same as that topic in the linky linky?

It seems that you have not time to read the OP.

But I like fast travel

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh195/xdementia/didntread.gif

Yes I did, and many of those things are exactly what is going on in the other thread. Everything with exploration and fast travel that is. As for the other things, yeah those are not the same, but the travel part is pretty much 100% what has been said in the other thread :wink_smile:

Sorry for the OT but it's just I can't understand this: why playing a game is considered as being "hard-core" player? I mean, they give you a "huge" map full of monsters, treasures and landscape... exploring it, not even that, just walking along it is considered hard-core?

I can't say anymore; it's funny enough by itself.

Fast travel for the lazy, quest markers for main quest only. Everything else should require a modicum of effort.

Seriously, the people who make heavy use of fast travel aren't likely to be the ones going on obscure quests, or doing a lot of random adventuring in the forest. They are going to be the ones power-leveling to complete the main quest. For them, I have no problem with quest markers that make it easy, or fast travel to make it, well, fast. Shoot, if they want to fast travel directly to the site of the quest after getting it from an NPC, fine - as long as it's optional.

However, there should always be the option to NOT fast travel, and use a horse or walk to your destination - and frankly, I think a lot of content should be only accessible by walking or horse, and side quests should require doing some research, being able to navigate using landmarks, etc. Shoot, some things should only be found by chance, walking through the wilderness. (no obvious trails to a long forgotten dungeon, etc.)

That is how I would handle the compromise.

Personally, I'm hoping there is either an in-game option, or config file setting, to totally disable both fast travel and quest markers.

wow I love it

OP u are a GOD :bowdown:

man I hope Beth read this

It'd be too late now anyway.

I rather like this...

In Oblivion random adventuring didn't work for the obvious reasons. Fallout 3 on the opposite was very rewarding with all the unique weapons in high level places & finding the different key codes for access to a locked-up place with powerful weapons/armour.
I think they will stick to the later. Though you missed a lot when you only rushed the main quest.
It's important they don't design the game only with quest markers in mind. Because when they are toggable you would need more detailed responses from NPCs.
€dit:^^-Ok, OP pointed that out, I'm on my way reading it ; )

This could actually work. I'm hoping the developers read this thread. Great Fast Travel solution, and very well presented!

Oh boy...

I know there will be a lot of people going on "THIIIS" and how "OP SPEAKS THE TRUTH" and anybody who disagrees "CAN'T READ LONG TEXTS", just because it's a long text...

The problem is the whole thing is wrong in the very first paragraph.

Why is there, or why should be there a giant distinction between "hardcoe" and "casual" gamers? So if somebody would rather use arrows and markers as a way to get around, they're instantly just playing a game for a few hours, not caring for the "depth and complexity of the world"?
Both are basically the same thing. I don't know how is it more satisfying to follow a step by step direction that tells you how to follow the road, than following an arrow at the end...

Uh... why is this here? Why does this matter? What does this have to do with anything?
Might as well also explain the magical map we have in Morrowind and Oblivion...

Yeah, setting your own marker would be nice, but you can already set your own arrow to show you the way anyway...

But then we go to my main problem:
If it is on the map, if you already know where it is, then why shouldn't it appear on the compass?
The compass is basically a simplified minimap anything that appears there, would appear on the compass as well. There's really no reason why they shouldn't appear at any time, when they can be already seen at any time on the map.

Otherwise you could just open and close the map screen for the exact same result, and really, this doesn't add more to the "exploration".



Isn't this how it actually works?

Even with the evil quest markers of Oblivion, there were a couple of quests where you had to ask around people to tell you about certain places, only then the quest marker appeared...

Again, what? What is this?
This is standard disposition, fame and reputation thing...

Why does this need an entire paragraph?

In short, this is the Daggerfall/Arena system.

If they like you they just point you to the general direction, if it's close, or like you even more, they mark it on your map...



So make Clairvoyance even more useful?

Otherwise this just seem pointless...

They already have an ingame meaning: Walking there off-screen. Fading out, fading in.

Yes, there should be some limitation, but there's absolutely no need for magics and whatnot. Add in a stamina drain, or a cooldown and that's it really...

So if Morrowind is having your cake, and Oblivion is eating it too... Then is Fallout 3 the plate and cutlery? :wink_smile:

Sorry about the naming, but you should get my drift.

I just wanted to distinguish between the two groups:

• The people who want to perform in-game actions and chores, and follow the written directions around the world, using the in-game land marks, and use in-game travel facilities, and so on...
  
• The people who like to bypass those actions and use the shortcuts provided in the UI, as opposed to actual game environment, and follow the directions provided on the UI compass, and open the UI map and point to a place and jump to it.

I hope so, too.


Maybe for all of it, but for some of the ideas, who knows.


Thanks, me too.


Thanks, I rather think so.


:D You can say so...

Hmm, I agree that both sides could be satisfied if the in game methods of travel had varying degrees of convenience and all purely menu based forms were taken out. There really is no need for unexplained menu teleportation, since horses and spells can be used easily for this. If they still provide no explanation or limitation for menu-teleporting that is just lazy game design. Oblivion players don't hate in game travel, they just want convenience. In game travel can be made convenient and balanced as long as there is some cost in order to activate it, like buying a horse or spell. However they implement it, I really hope it does not make the NPC assisted traveling system feel like a forced activity. If they absolutely must make fast travel an immediate menu-teleporting option with no activation cost for fear of young children not being able to figure it out, at the very least they should make the carriages take you to different locations that you can't just menu-port to.

I'm also a little iffy about the clairvoyance spell, but I'm very happy that it is replacing the Oblivion system. Your idea about the alternate animation is interesting, but I'm fine with the swirly worm thing for now.

As for the compass, I agree that traveling toward an arrow rather than navigating with a map is a huge difference. When there is a compass arrow telling you what direction to run in, it also tells you what direction NOT to run in, and thus discourages exploration due to curiosity.

With the map, I can understand how lacking a paper map could be seen as an issue since we would really navigate this sort of world with one (unless you are a powerful mage or something and can see yourself in strange perspectives...) but I do think the new map is an interesting addition to the game. Since I hope I won't ever need to use it for travel, I'll probably just look at it for fun sometimes and otherwise use whatever in game physical maps they provide. I would be surprised if they don't make one since it should be so easy to do.

I stopped reading once you insinuated that people who enjoy using map based fast travel are lazy, don't care or the depth and complexity of the game, or can't be "hardcoe" gamers. And since you made that distinction right at the beginning, I didn't read much.

Ehhh. I agree with you OP, but your classifications for the 2 groups is a bit...Off. As said before, people can still care about the complexity and depth of the world, while still using quest markers and FT. It's really how well you use your imagination. Either way, nice post.

While I agree the classification is off, simplifying the difference to imagination only makes it less offensive, not more accurate. A person with a higher tolerance for immersion breaking tools like quest markers might be able to tolerate them due to an ability to imagine they aren't there or an ability to create explanations for them, but a person who wants the quest markers and menu fast travel doesn't want them because they can tolerate them.

Some reasons I can think of why a person might want them are:
( a ) To save time.
( b ) To avoid boredom.
( c ) To reduce challenge.

Some reasons why a person might want them removed are:
( a ) Fear they will steer game design away from features that are, to them, worth the time and/or challenge.
( b ) Fear they will be implemented in a way that is distracting and/or unavoidable.
( c ) Fear they will be implemented in a way that makes certain game features feel redundant and/or forced.

And like the OP points out, both sides can be satisfied if the Oblivion style options are implemented in a way that requires some in game activation cost. An appropriate cost would be preferable, but even just finding and flicking a switch to turn on a feature as a simple one-time cost would be better than having them always there free of all costs.