One of the things I have been wondering for a little while now, is just how important crafting should be in a game like FOOL. While FOOL will be adapting the Earthrise engine from Masthead, it will not necessarily place the same emphasis on player crafting as that game.

Depending on how it were to be implemented, crafting would only be viable if there was adequate access to the necessary resources. Having access to the raw materials may grow to be a very big deal if crafting ends up being an important aspect of the game. This would be especially true if PvP becomes necessary at any stage in order to gain the access needed for the raw materials.

Ammo, weapons and armor are the three main craftables that come easily to mind. I would suppose various consumables could always be included; depending on how in-depth the survival aspects of the game are to be handled. Some things may be better off in the hands of NPCs however.

I agree that ammo, weapons and armor should be craftable and when you mentioned consumables I got an idea.

It would be cool if guild/faction/gang, im just gonna go with (lets say that factions can buy ranches) could raise up cattle/farms (no not farmville >_>) and the produce consumable items out of that, even jet?. Lonely players should be able to do this as well but then they have to find the resources themself, out in the wastes that is, the factions have all their resources in the base, but it still takes time for to create all goods and when they have gathered a reasonable amount of goods they must transport it to a place where they can sell it.

At least I would think it to be nice if a faction could buy a small piece of land to grow stuff on, then sell the goods, of course they would also have to defend it from other factions and raiders.

anyway, not all want to grind missions or kill creatures all the time, some like crafting, I like to do both
//with faction i mean player faction, not npc based.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Crafting gives us a reason to PVP for higher end resources. I really prefer the SWG crafting to something completely generic like WoW.

Also Item degradation (and crafting itself) is important to a virtual economy as a money sink. We have seen time and time again, games where items do not degrade or eventually fall apart, the economy gets pretty bad.

It just wouldn't feel post-apoc if there was no crafting.

I really hope there's a strong crafting system in place once FOOL hits. I think it fits quite well into the theme of the game, subsisting on what you can make or find and all that. There's also the possibility to have player crafting a required part of keeping your gear and stuff in top shape, another thing that could fit well in the universe.

If we end up crafting gear and such akin to some other MMOs, it would be nice to see crafted gear not utterly phased out by end-game 'raid'/PvP gear. Too often it seems that one of the two always ends up being superior. It would be nice if for once they were all good, but in different ways.

Alternatively, if PvP gear and 'raid' gear has to be better, undeniably better, it would also be nice to see crafting a required part of making that gear after doing the raids and PvP and such, you'd still have reason to do those things and still have a viable and meaningful crafting system.

Things I hate about MMO crafting:
-need to join a huge raid to get crafting mats.
-crafted gear becomes junk too fast (unable to craft gear above level to make it worth it).
-taking too much of my play time while crafting. (be nice to queue it up when I log off).
-not being able to make fun stuff that you cant find on vendors.

Things I like about MMO crafting:
-make some decent income from people not wanting to take the time to make themselves.
-being self-sufficient.
-wearing/using something you will not find on a vendor or as a drop item.
-makes the game more fun for me if I can make useful items for myself or others.

Heh, I must admit that some farm-like aspects may be fun. Teaching some Brahmin to say "Moo, I say!" could be a kick... especially if you believe they are actually smarter than they appear.

Hopefully FOOL does not fall into the 'better loot' gear grind of some other MMOs. Is a Gatling laser any better than a normal Minigun? Heck yes! Err... I mean it is only if you prefer energy weapons... and can ensure a steady supply of the appropriate ammo type of course.

Ideally there would be different mechanisms to arrive at one's ideal type of equipment. Crafting, killing or questing are the top three that come to mind of course. Heck if the crafting system is at all decent, one may want to go raiding in order to get parts or the ability to learn how to make the cool stuff.

One thing I don't want to have to do (as in the fallout series) is dedicate skill points to crafting that could be more useful somewhere else. I think it's best when every player can craft. Maybe we could have a separate pool of points just for crafting.

Another point I would like to make - if we begin as vault dwellers we should have some pre-vault technology knowledge, BUT it would be very interesting to be able to take usable dropped items and disassemble them to add that knowledge to our toon (perhaps yielding a schematics of sorts we could improve on?). In the mean time it would give dropped items a use other than vendor junk as well as improve the money/item sink (if they are destroyed in the process).

I DON'T like the idea of finding/camping/farming dropped blueprints as in some other MMOs. In fact I don't like the idea of farming and camping at all (unless it is PVP-related).

Ideally any form of crafting would utilize skills that are useful for other things as well. Things like Repair, Science and so forth. Crafting weapons could even require a certain level of familiarity with weapons of that type. To make a Laser Pistol, for example, you may need to have a decent Energy Weapons skill.

No need to make skills specific for crafting IMO if existent types of skills are plenty useful already.

Again I agree with you, crafting should go off skills you already use, for example if you're a master sniper you would probably have some knowledge on making/improving a sniper rifle and making your own rounds. People who are really into cars and driving usually work on their own car, for example.

PvP (or raids/guilds/etc.) being 'necessary' for crafting limits the whole scope. Sure there should be bonuses for doing certain content, but nothing that can only be gotten from one path. Non- raiders should be able to access high-level schematics, just over a longer time period. Non-guilded players should be able to access npc foundrys for a price (or takes longer to complete).
Getting into a two-teir 'haves' and 'have-nots' game is a bad move IMO.

Great suggestion! I am one of those that tend to do things on my own because I play at odd times and level faster than my friends. When they log on, I am usually helping them and I need to be able to go about on my own. If it means taking longer because I don't want to farm it in PvP or with others, then it should take me a bit longer or cause me to go a different way to obtain these items.

I also like the idea of a previous poster... we should be able to salvage stuff and break it down into basic components for crafting or discover schematics to create things. (saluaging a pistol allows the user to learn the basic start of pistol creation). Would also be fun if after creating a specific amount of the same thing, we could take the time to research on a higher level item. Then we can trade this knowledge to other players. (be more valuable if vendors didn't have some items that we can research).

I am not a 100% crafter and neither are my buddies but we all like crafting and like sharing what we make. This is an aspect of the game that can make it or break it for me. A big-name MMO destroyed this fun for me and I haven't played that game in over two years because of it. I know I am just ONE VOICE in this madness but if crafting requires that I cannot make competitive gear without being in a huge, high end guild with weekly raids, then this game will not be on my hard drive.

In an RP aspect... The lone tinkerer or mad scientist can discover unique inventions. In MMO RP, that lone tinkerer or mad scientist is needed by the masses.

It is my opinion that an MMO without crafting s little more than a glorified FPS/RPG. There is a significant portion of the gaming community that sees crafting as a primary activity rather than an sideline to add a few creds/items to your toon.

As mentioned in a previous post, SWG had one of the best crafting systems that have been my pleasure to participate in. I say "had one of the best" because in it's original itteration, everything mattered. There were legendary crafters out there who were known to make the best of a given article. Many of those requisite talents fell by the wayside in the NGE or shortly beforehand. If the entire crafting system in SWG had one downfall, it was the resource gathing methodology that fueled the production side of the profession... anyone else loath the vast plains of harvesters that consumed many a planet? ...but I digress.

Scavenging, archeology, engineering, hunting... all of these things describe activities that we all participated in to some degree through the Fallout franchise. To not include them in the MMO would be downright silly. To not include them as a primary skillset would be a shame. To not have there be a unique, well thought out, engrossing crafting system would be, well... almost expected honestly.

Same as you Monsh.
I have been amazed to see how many people can come to a game only to craft something!
But crafting has to remain a player choice and not an obligation because a lot of players see crafting only as a pain in the ass.

Crafting is good, but i'm not really sure how well it would fit into the FO universe, after all in FO1+2 you scavanged just about everything you used from the remains of the pre-Great War world. To fit with the FO lore, only some weapons and armor could be crafted, the pipegun, leather armor, and metal armor come to mind. But crafting of, say, combat armor and/or power armor just wouldn't feel too much like fallout.

Also, few MMOs can find the perfect middle ground when it comes to crafting, they tend to be either games where everything needs to be crafted and most players have to have a crafting alt or sink points into craft skills on thier mains to be viable. This can be because of the ruined economy found in most games, however, not solely because of the crafting system itself.

Now, with that being said, IMO there are two ways crafting needs to be implemented in FO to make it viable. The first i already touched on, very high tier equipment should only be scavanged, not crafted. However, ammo should be crafted and for higher tier crafters they could have the ability to craft player housing and perhaps vehicles (the mechanic in The Den who fixed up the highwayman comes to mind).

Regardless, crafting needs to be handled delicately to prevent it from becoming something that everyone needs to do in some form or another to be viable in game. IMO to do this every item that is crafted needs to be available to players who don't want to craft at a reasonable price for thier level, either from NPCs or player interactions. At the same time, crafting needs to be complex and consume enough time that not everyone is going to do it just to save money or to make extra cash.

SWG had it right, too right!

If you killed a supermonster you got superingredients to give your local crafter so he could make a superweapon with it. Maybe in line with the fallout lore you could then name it since it suddenly became a unique weapon

Also SWG had a whole minigame where you constantly had to look for resources if you wanted to be the best crafter out there. LOVED IT!!! SWG was a sandbox game though, a model not really fitting to the general community of todays mmo players. However i would love to see something like SWG reappear in FOOL where the good crafters where sought after, not cause of the recipies, but cause of the superior quality they can make since they put so much time into finding the best resources.

I'll be VERY happy if crafting is as intricate as SWG (and not dumbed down like when at crafting stations = click-click-click = done).

I'd love to have ACTUAL experimentation! ie. base mineral_X has 121,323,44,22,424,152 properties, and base mineral_Y has 312,42,111,53,1,435 properties, and so on.....

... and we can combine those to custom design subcomponents - and then components, design the chassis (taking into consideration: size, weight, durability, malleability, conductivity, decay/corrosion factors, resists to various elements, etc)

Then depending on POWER usage per component, we powerline the electronics/circuits, wire every point, solder every component in, and create anything from guns to mechs!

Ofcourse "knowledge" is scarce and - acquisition of such tech and jury-rigging and improvisations and blueprints etc can be another layer of the game where acquisition of this knowledge in itself is a goal (not kill_x boss for recipe!).

Imagine the ability to be the only ONE on the server who has perfected the recipe to craft a particular type of subcomponent that everyone wants!! Ofcourse people can TRY to replicate it by conducting tests in their own labs - but that takes time. They may make inferior versions/clones - or even stumble on a better and superior version - all depending on their own approach to the designs.
Wastelander since C=64!

Awaiting Alpha/Beta testing!

With a 'realistic' game world, I'm expecting most crafting components to come from mining/refining/scavenging. After all I don't remember the last time anyone made a tiger-spleen machine gun, or elephant-brain rocket launcher. Sure a few examples (deathclaw claw gauntlets) might be creature-kill based, but hopefully they are rare ones that make sense.

(and yes, I know some cultures eat tiger-wang and gibbon-brain as 'medicine' but really would your character drink a molerat-testicle smoothie because it was maketed as an aphrodisiac?)

If I remember, there will be multiple shards of servers, not one big one. Now, think there will be a small crafting part like in most mmos (gather this, make that, get to top level for nothing because a monster dropped something better ).
If not, there will be a downfall because I don't see them making all items limited of use (so crafting will matter); there should be a few uber repairable items, but very rare.
Anyway. hope I'll be proven wrong and we'll just have to see!
Btw, there are some nice posts im this thread (hear us IP? )!

I will prefer crafting focused to combination of components to make specific items.
E.g. there is base weapons, and pluggable items (scope, muffler, etc). Better component - better result.
So crafting will be in 2 parts: making components (tubes, metal parts, etc) and combining them to make final weapons (scoped laser riffle, m16 with muffler, etc). So each weapon will suite to specific role.
Also disassembling components to simpler parts should exist. E.g. to make a magazine, user should combine 6 metal parts, but when he disassemble, he get back 2-4 parts only.



Crafting professions could be:
* Small weapons + ammo
* Big weapons + ammo
* Energy weapons + ammo
* light armor (leather, metal)
* heavy armor (combat, power, tesla)
* drugs (i hope they will be in game)
* food and drinks (cooking)
* disassembling
* traps (incl explosives)
* locks
* transport (cars/bikes)
* computers
* turrets
* buildings (from tents to walls)
* mining (ore)
* gathering (flowers, fruits, etc)
* implants
* furniture (everyone will need bookshelves and lockers)
* arts (painting, music)

Idea that character get profession, after he have raised specific stats. E.g. to make cars, he need to have science, repair and driving 120 and outdorsman 80. So making cars is not for everyone, and player should have friends or other characters who could bring enough resources. To be able to gather flowers - outdorsman 60 (not high, but gathering is really simple). And characters that are made for team pvp will probably don't need to gather anything. To make implants, science, doctor - 250, first aid 150.
As crafting character will means that he need to have maxed INT and spend points only for peaceful skill, leveling would be very hard and time consuming - this will allow to get only limited crafters in early game phase. Also quest (once per week per server) could be added that allow to make higher tier items. So if someone make it, then others should wait 1 week to try again.

I will be very happy, if FO could go further basic item crafting, and allow people to build buildings. It could be tents from brahmin/gecko hides, wooden cave walls, doors, and stone buildings. It would be very good if some new towns and hideouts will appears from players, and thne get destroyed by others. But i'm not sure if it ever possible.

Firm MMO should have some obligatory aspects. They are: PvE, PvP, Exploration, Crafting and Sociality . All of them are equally important. Remove just one (or make it not good enough) and the whole game will be castrated. Excuse my bad English... I am a Russian bear, it's hard to type with claws.