Indeed.

Now we need SENTIENT-VENGEFUL-THATCHED-COTTAGES!

Have you considered that there may be areas that are Imperial-Accessible because they are on higher ground well above the swamps?

But there is definately a vast central area that is full of powerful toxins and deadly diseases. I hope you read 'The Argoninan Account'? You'll find it in TIL and it will give you some idea of what happens to Traders who regularly skirt the swamps. Then try and imagine what happens when you go further in.

It's one thing for a powerful mage and alchemist to concoct strong potions - but normal folk have to make do with stuff that could not cope with the apparent conditions - and casting spells and giving powerful potions to entire armies is just not on - it cannot be kept up indefinately which is why the deep swamp has never been conquered and invading armies have withdrawn in abysmal failure ...

Argonia may be considered part of the Empire, but you might consider that is just for the sake of peaceful relations rather than because of a total and permanent military victory.


Fascinating Lady N
ooh lookee someone talkin about clanmother ... not me :rolleyes: would you care to indicate with a quote where the clanmother first enters this thread?




Somehow I think I am going to pass on that one proweler, lest a 'story' appear in TIL with only that on the page.

[edited]

never mind. ill be the bigger man here. let me just leave it at the fact that your attitude and your comments got old months ago.

20 years, as is the life-span of an Iguana.
Haha, but seriously probably the same as other races.

That was a cross-forum inside joke (not much of one)

"Its borderlands and coasts have been ravaged by civilization after civilization, but its heart is inviolate, for so poisonous is its air, ground, and water, its mysteries are secure."
--The Pocket Guide, Third Edition, "The War with the Trees: Argonia and Blackmarsh"

Now, I realize that this is from The Pocket Guide to the Empire, which is not completely reliable, but it is certainly one of the most well-researched sources of information on Tamriel available. I also realize that it does not explicitly say what I said (that unless you're an Argonian, you cannot survive the poisonous ground/air/water in the center of Blackmarsh), but I would argue that could easily mean exactly what I said. Argonians are the only (known) civilized mortal race in Tamriel that is immune to poison, so...unless you're Argonian, you're going to have trouble with the poisonous heart of Blackmarsh. Though as others have said, if Bethesda makes Blackmarsh at some point, they'll (almost) certainly have a work-around for that.

But yeah, wow, what was I thinking, propagating a silly notion like that? I could've led so many people astray! :rolleyes:

EDIT: Credited source of quotation.

How long to Argonians live?

Depends. If I'm running low on Alchemy ingredients they'd better keep one hand over that heart at all times.

That sums that up briskly someonetookmyname - live and read eh?

And congratulations Lil Shua you managed a good stab at answering the question :thumbsup: - possible qualifiers? Offhand, serious magery/necromancy/Hist interference (if they are capable of such intervention) etc ...

Also you might consider that the Hist might have interfered with the lifecycles of Argonians - and that could already include a boosted longevity up to a human equivalent.

RL - look at the tortoise - some live 200yrs, and i believe the Kimodo Dragons are quite long-lived too - but it is more difficult for carnivors to live long as they have to hunt moving prey.

You and 1999: Why don't you get real since lore isn't stopping Bethesda from putting non-Argonians PCs within the interior of the province. And it still is a silly notion. While I won't deny the extremely treacherous nature of the province, the mind-boggling degree of exaggeration that is used to justify not being able to play in BM as a non-Argonian has become overly trite and unjustified. It is NOT a lore blunder that an non-Argonian PC can come into the interior of the province, meet the Hist, and survive to reach the coasts.

dear Someone,

The first Pocket Guide to the Empire contains a kernel of truth veiled in a thick layer of prejudice. At the time of its writing the Empire was young and its citizens afraid of each other, and the Pocket Guide played into these fears. Poisonous, furthermore, is defined not only as literarily deadly but also as "extremely malicious and unpleasant" and "capable of causing illness." The former definition is perfect for Argonia. While I do not deny that Argonia is a deadly and poisonous province, and its interior especially so, I do not think that it is deadly enough to prove instantaneously fatal to any non-native who steps within its heartland. Those that venture into the Marsh's interior undoubtably have tools to combat its poisons: face masks, protective clothing, and resist poison potions among them. If a game was to be set in Black Marsh you, the hero, would have the added advantage of prophesy, as was mentioned by Xui'al earlier in the thread.

On a tangent, lore would not stop Bethesda should they decide to stage an adventure in Argonia.

Respectfully submitted,
Ayaan-si

I couldn't agree with you more. If Beth wants to stage a game somewhere I'm sure they can tie the lore into it and make a solid if not great game. And the point about prophecy being on the PC's side, very nice.

Yeah, I know. That's why I quoted from the Third Edition.

That's an interesting point, and certainly a valid one. Like you said, it could easily mean that it's just poisonous, not deadly. Though it does seem odd that it would say "but its heart is inviolate, for so poisonous is its air, ground, and water, its mysteries are secure." I mean, that could suggest that either no or very few sentient beings can (or want to, or do, for whatever reason) travel to the very heart of Blackmarsh. But, again, it doesn't say that explicitly, and the Third Edition may not be much better than the First or Second (as I said previously). Either interpretation could be correct, or neither might be the case.



Of course the poisonous nature of Blackmarsh's heart isn't going to stop Bethesda from putting non-Argonians in the interior of the province. I never said it would. I'm wondering if you're taking out your disagreements with others who have said that on me. Which is fine, but I just want to make it clear that I never said that. I just gave my interpretation of a sentence from the Third Edition of the PGttE. I think it would be pretty cool to have the heart of Blackmarsh deadly for any non-Argonian (or even include them!), unless they have powerful poison resistant clothes/potions, or anti-poison potions they would have to drink every few hours. Of course, that's just what I think; I don't work for Bethesda, I'm not going to be designing Blackmarsh for any upcoming games, and I don't breathe Elder Scrolls lore. But, once more, I don't think it's a silly notion that the (small) center of Blackmarsh could be deadly poisonous, because it is a possible meaning of the sentence I quoted. I do think it's silly to believe that if the heart of the province is deadly, then other races couldn't go there, or that you couldn't play as anything but an Argonian in a Blackmarsh ES game.

I'd guess you don't think that the heart of Blackmarsh is deadly poisonous. That's fine, and I respect your opinion because it's obviously a possibility; it could just as easily be simply "bad for one's health." But there is no reason to call my position a silly notion. It's a possibility just like your position. And I think we can both agree that if Bethesda ever creates Blackmarsh, no playable race will have any undue trouble getting in and out of its heart.

-----------------

I've been thinking about the life-span of Argonians, and like many have said, I don't think there is any lore anywhere that could shed light on the subject. If they are somehow related to the Aldmer settlers from Atmora, then they could have lifespans centuries long. But since scholars can't even decide whether or not Khajiit are mer or not, this is also just speculation. I suspect that they have a lifespan similar to the "human" races of Tamriel, but we may never know unless someone gets on here with a quote from a lore source, or a Bethesda employee makes an illuminating post.

I'm not speculating how deadly Black Marsh is. I'm railing against posters coming to some conclusion that the game won't be playable to non-Argonians. However, your guess is wrong. We're talking about the [censored] Hist, who claimed to be the cause of the Khnaten Flu, a disease that wiped non-Argonians in the province. Black Marsh is treacherous, no doubt. That's why the coasts and the exterior are colonized. But, it's toxic nature does not mean unplayable.



They're not. Done.



Both. Khajiit have merish origin, but that occurred come from the Dreamtime of the Dawn.

Which means they actually don't. Forest People =/= elves.

And, c'mon its the dawn. There were probebly sentient machines, talknig rocks and power rangers running around during the dawn too. You can't put anything that happened during the dawn into fact.

No [censored].

They have common origins. We got that in fact? Christ...even after a hiatus...

See, this leads me to believe that you're just taking out your frustrations with past posters on me. You read my post, right? I specifically said that I don't think that Bethesda would make Blackmarsh an "Argonian-only" zone. Twice. I can't think of a reason why Bethesda would remove any playable race from any province in an Elder Scrolls game, much less all but one! I don't understand where you got the idea I was implying that.

And what's this about the Hist and the Khnaten Flu? I know others had mentioned the Hist in their posts, but I certainly wasn't talking about the Hist. Were you? I'd be interested in any information you have that would shed light on the Hist having to do with the poisonous heart of Blackmarsh! The Hist fascinate me, so feel free to include sources so I can find out more for myself!


Do you have sources for either of these? I was under the impression that the origins of both Argonians and Khajiit are the stuff of legend, and that at no time has Bethesda cleared it up. But I've certainly been wrong before, so let me know if I missed that bit of lore!

Also, if the Khajiit have merish origin, do they too have extended lives (perhaps over 150 years?)? Or was that trait lost?

Heh, I thought I posted "you clarified yourself." Hehe, I guess not. Yeah gotcha. I am taking my frustrations on you. Difference is we have a dialogue going that ended up with at least some shared views.



I am. The Hist is the unique denizen of the province, and they are probably the spirits that caused the province to be treacherous in the first place. If it weren't for them, BM would just be an extension of Cyrodiil or Morrowind. Yes, there's not a lot given about them yet, so considering that I do believe they are the protective ancestral spirits of the Argonians if Mr. Kirkbride says the Hist are "just giant lizards".



:sigh: I don't know where you got that Argonians are of Aldmeri origin. They have mysterious origins, but what you said was just mind-boggling. I mean where'd you get that.

Yes, Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi. The Khajiiti were created from the Dawn Era, a "time" where the ancestors of the men, mer, and khajiit (simply called the forest people in the myth) shifted from being a rock to a tree to a weremead. The give them a definite form, the forest god Y'ffre became an Earthbone, a law of nature. This time is still remembered by the Wood Elves, known as the Wild Hunt. Some of the forest people at the same time were tied by Azura to the phases of the moons - the Khajiit. That's why we have the several forms of the Khajiit. And that's why when the Dawn Era ended, the Khajiit were seen as established indigenous beast folk living in places like the City Isles and Elsweyr, but somehow one of its forms look like the elves.

Look, extended lives aren't really a given to the elves in the mortal plane. In fact, the god Phynaster had to tell the Altmer to make their strides shorter in order to live longer.

EVERYTHING on Nirn has common origins, but what I'm saying is that those common origins are NOT merish (again forest people). Its a misnomer simply beacuse the Bosmer and Khajhit developed from the same batch. Even the Bsomer's own merishness is in question (the wild hunt ability makes them seem quite different from the Altmer).

When you look at it, the only thing that makes an elf and elf is a shared belief system. The Khajit don't share that belief system, and hence are not mer.

I didn't say they were "mer", I said they had merish origins. Or more accurately common origins. And that one of their forms is humanoid. And the fact that they worship the same set of gods as that of the Ehlnofey races (kinda weak statement, though). I don't see the relevance in discerning who the "Forest People." Only that Khajiit is a distant, distant relation.

I see, and that's a very interesting theory! It makes sense, too, because the Argonians were being exploited extensively, and the Khnaten Flu would've been a "saving grace" for the Argonians, who could live in their own land undisturbed (at least, for a time). So do you believe that these protective ancestor spirits have a corporeal form (such as trees, etc.) or are they more like the "ancestor ghosts" of the Dunmer? And by the way, who is Mr. Kirkbride? Is he a Bethesda employee? I've seen his name before, but I'm not sure who he is!


I didn't say that Argonians have Aldmeri origin, I just said that they could, because we don't know their real origins, and likened it to the Khajiit situation (where, according to the Third Edition of the PGttE, scholars cannot agree on Khajiit origins). Here is the relevant passage I am talking about:

"Khajiit are commonly considered one of the beast folks, one of the few survivors of the original inhabitants of Tamriel before the coming of mer and man, and Elsweyr is their home. This tradition is not, of course, accepted by one and all. Alternate theories abound that their origin, based mainly around the fact that one of the breeds of Khajiit, the Ohmes-Raht, so closely resembles the elven folk that they could be cousins. Some believe that the Khajiit are simply descendant of the original Aldmer settlers in Tamriel, who evolved, like the Altmer, Bosmer, Dunmer, and Orsimer, because of circumstance, into the cat-like race that walks the dunes of Elsweyr. If so, they are just one more of the alien, sentient species who have made themselves so much a part of Tamriel to be confused for natives.

The more commonly held belief, however, is that they were not foreign intelligent creatures who became cats to survive the hostile, arid land of Elsweyr, but they were indigenous cats whose knack for change allowed them to survive while other native creatures declined and disappeared. It is strange to think that so inhospitable a land, of blistering heat and crop destroying wind, would have been the fecund womb for one of the original predators of Tamriel, but that seems to be the unlikely likelihood."
--Pocket Guide to the Empire, Third Edition, "Sugar and Blood: The Cats of the South"

Now, again, we don't know how reliable the Pocket Guide is, but (to me, at least) it seems quite a bit more reliable than the First Edition (which I suppose may not be saying much ). The point is, though, that several theories are presented regarding the origin of the Khajiit, and one of them includes the idea that perhaps the Khajiit are related to the Aldmeri settlers. I was simply extending this concept to the Argonians as well, as a possible explanation for their origin, because if it could have happened to the Khajiit, it could have happened to the Argonians as well. But it's just a possibility, because we really don't know; after all, "The origin of the species associated with the name "Argonian" is the stuff of myth, not history" (Pocket Guide to the Empire, Third Edition, "The War with the Trees: Argonia and Blackmarsh"). And finally, I suggested that if the Argonians are somehow related to the Aldmeri settlers, they could indeed have lives centuries long, though as you pointed out, extended lives aren't necessarily "guaranteed" to the mer of Mundus. Sure it's all speculation (as I said), but I think it's an interesting theory, and that's what I do on these threads-- I speculate, using lore to support my theory, but never saying "That's the way it is, my interpretation is Truth," because it's not, it's just a possibility.

I don't know Knight Mariel - some days it seems I only have to post 'a' and some says I posted 'b' - maybe you would like to go back to the posts I made and you would discover what was actually said? <_<

At least make an effort please. sorry - gtg for now maybe have time tomorrow to answer in depth.

The Hist are to Argonians as the Gods/Ancestors/Ehlnofey/Giants are to the Men/Mer. But, the anology does not mean relationship. The Hist are a totally different strain of spirits.

Michael Kirkbride (MK). (Former) Bethesda employee. Now freelancer who still writes for Bethesda. Wrote Vivec's Sermons. Wrote the cosmology. Wrote Song of Pelinal. Wrote ManKar Camoran's speech. Collaborated with Mr. Kuhlmann to create Knights of the Nine. And more. Not all accept his works, FYI. But, he along with other devs like Ted Peterson contributed to lore significantly. I like his stuff, so I believe in it.



I'm not obtuse to the speculative nature. I don't know where you got it. Now, I do. Look, Argonians don't have a form that look like elves. Khajiit do, which is a throwback to their form in the first TES game. And those theories of indigenous cat-forms and common origins with mer are NOT mutually exclusive. Just because you observe in-character conflicts within the game that doesn't mean you can't determine what happend to them. I told you where they don't have to conflict. Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi. And don't be so dismissive of myth. They appeared in the Dawn Era, and when the Merethic started, they were already indigenous to Tamriel.

The issue is that the Khajiiti origin dates back to before Mer existed. They have Ehlnofeian origin, that much is pretty clear, but so do men. And even the Argonain's assumed lack of Ehlnofeyishness is not technicly based in much. As Someonetookmyname said, they could very well be Ehlnofey, we really don't know. Do they worship the Ehlnofey patheon? Maybe. We know the Kothringi did, and one of the supposed (but doubtful) origins of the Kothringi is Nede/Aragonian hybrids. The fact is we don't know.

Again, let me reiterate Mer =/= Ehlnofey

Your reiterating a fact that I never contradicted. Ya know, I'll let this thread evolve for a while.

I don't know if someone has pointed this out before, but...

You said "a thousand ears"! :rolleyes: :foodndrink: :flamethrower: