Oddly enough, the harshest critics of World of Warcraft say the exact same thing (In fact, I saw some of them over in the Fallout MMO thread yesterday). That it didn't add anything new to gameplay, or that it was average. It doesn't really matter though. Wow has sold 10 million + subscriptions and if you ask someone on the street if they've ever heard of an MMO I'd be willing to bet that the most common response, if any is WoW.

Furthermore, I think that Fallout 3 is much more than an average game (I also thought Wow was above average, but people either love WoW or hate it). It isn't perfect, but then again neither were Fallout 1 and 2. Games don't have to be perfect for them to be remembered fondly by the people who played them they have to be fun and Fallout 3 has that in spades.

Finally, yes people that play consoles move on to new and exciting games when they are released, but believe it or not, people that own consoles are not all 5 year olds with ADD that forget everything when they see the next shiny. Heck even people with ADD carry their previous experience forward to judge their new experience. And when Fallout 4 is inevitably released the vast majority of people that have previous Fallout experiences will have that experience with Fallout 3 exclusively. That vast majority of people who have played any Fallout game will use their common experience of Fallout 3 to set their expectations for the future.

It doesn't mean that Fallout 3 is the best of the series (it could be the worst), it doesn't mean that Fallout 3 defined the lore, but Fallout 3 will be the definitive game because it is the game that most people who know anything about fallout know. It isn't a matter of fairness or correctness, it is a matter of convenience.

It's a great game to all, but I don't think it will ever be the definitive Fallout game.

Lacking the ability to kill children, the overly excessive drug usage, not being able to shoot someone in the groin in V.A.T.S., not being able to target specific bodyparts in V.A.T.S., and the lack of really sarcastic insults and people just being [censored]s.


I do believe it's a proper Fallout game, I just think that the mainstream of it has censored it much from the way it used to be, which is kind of sad.

I mean, don't get me wrong I LOVE this adaptation and interpretation of the game, I do accept it as proper because despite the above it still holds the same feeling as the old Fallout games did. I just think that because of Bethesda's popularity, it had to have much of it censored. Hell, even Australia had problems with releasing it, Bethesda did as much as they could get away with, content-wise. But because that's all they could do, for the same reason, that's why Fallout 3 generally won't be put on the same high pedestal as Fallout, or Fallout 2.

I really hate to say this, but you hit the nail on the head there. It pains my heart to say it, but you're probably right and I couldn't possibly say anything that would break the logic of your post. But you said it yourself, it really isn't fair that the previous games will probably be shoved slowly to the background with every new Fallout-based game that's bound to come out in the next years, although it is understandable. But a discussion about fairness isn't what we're getting at here.

Still, I just wanted to add that Fallout 1 was recently added to IGN's Videogame Hall Of Fame, so the game does get recognized as being very important in gaming history. Some people, even critics nowadays, do really feel like Fallout was a classic that deserves to be up there with other groundbreaking games like Doom, Super Mario Bros. and Ocarina of Time. Here's the link: http://games.ign.com/halloffame/fallout.html

I think this discussion took a wrong turn somewhere around first pages ,as an old fan of rpg games i also got the same `no soul` feeling few hours in to the game, and after finishing the game (cant find any side-quests) and finish the main quest with few different endings, i just couldnt find a reason to play this game again, it was really `over!` at level 20 i have 400 hp with 5 endurance and 6 skills at 100 i was a walking god and good at everything, why should i wear anything but power armor or use any gun but plasma rifle(i know there are better armors and weapons) , there are no different damage types and armors only have a general damage resistance (except pulse against machines and radiation suites).

What i am trying to say is i dont want my chracter to have power armor training and perfect at heavy guns and small guns but also have 100% sneak ,repair ,science and picklock it just kills the immersion, give us a reason to wear different type of lighter armors (dodge&parry type defense) ,give us a reason to use different type of weapons with different builds or better yet give us skill trees ,once you start your career as a soldier you can only get good on war arts but never become perfect at science or other sneak type skills (soldier-spy-scientist as base classes maybe)

Basicly give us a reason to play again..You may think i am oversimplifying but i assure you this kind of profession based approach will really increase the replay value of this game .

Well if i where to draw comparison between FO2 and FO3 i would mention the cut way of several typical FO Elements like Manual Targeting of several body parts (not included in V.A.T.S.) like groin,eyes for example and only to mention a few. Even if you cripple a head of anybody perception is not affected they keep shooting as if nothing happend...(fire on arms instead?) ok ... accuracy has dropped. O.o didn t cause the loss of the weapon. Critical Misses ? The sarcastic\black humor the wastelanders accepted their fates or even the floating comments wich somethimes where just hilarious or even being a porm star ? gone too. Gay wedding * ? nope thats been cut away too. Citys ? just 2 worth mentioning wich is megaton and R.City ... and several meaningless ones other than that. More Vaults? yes. Intelligent Deathclaws? nope gone too. Level caps way too low? that too. Tools like E.Lockpick wich you can use on the doors (boosts Lockpick skill) nope not here either. just very easy locks, easy, averange, Hard and Very Hard. Wich reduces the skill just to pre-requirement in order to attempt to pick it. Nothing in FO2 prevented you from trying to pick, even if you broke the door in the process...blast it open with explosives (if its not a metal one). Repairing tools? nope we fix our guns with fingers and an spare gun. FO2 wasn t nessesary to fix weapons so the point here goes to FO3 but for simple weapon maintainance sacrificing another gun? only if spare parts would be needed...could be below 50 % of durability or if the weapon starts jamming. Geckos ... i really miss these fellas even if they where for skinning only. Escorting a herd of bramin ? no ... much less traders too. Good thing FO3 is less buggy than FO2. And i won't compare grapics ... at the time it FO1 FO2 where made most had gpus counting with 16MB or 32MB if you had a lot of cash. Try running FO3 with one of these cards. .......

I will cut it short ... the list is much longer than that (ah one more : 1 woman of a dedicated profession so to speak i managed to find and wasn t really what i expected...even the witcher pulls off more in this direction.) ** The Virgin of the Wastes ** Perk added

gameplay has changed a lot wich reduces it to a almost FPS/RPG with Oblivion Engine (even modPCA works in console for the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. Stats)

- sorry for the mess

in defense of FO3 i must say the enviroment and atmosphere it creates is great but did they need to cut away most of the stuff what former fallout releases made famous?

Well ... i'm just glad someone did actually pull of a Fallout 3. AND its not as linear as BOS (Fallout Tactics) thank heavens. But FO3 being THE definite Fallout game...In blood & gore yes. Gameplay no. And to prevent missunderstandings ... grafics is not the only thing counting. But it is a nice factor i admit. It still has ways to go until it can be THE Fallout game but it has potencial, unfortunately it mostly stayed potencial...

Exactly what does it bring to the table if you do not mind me asking? Make a list for us if you will

The "majority" of people playing Fallout 3 are also more than likely only console gamers and we need not get into the low standards console owners have set for themselves in recent years.

Anyways yeah I would like that list from you

Ive found Fallout 2 extremely hard to get back into simply because it takes so bloody long to get going story and development wise.

Fallout 1 on the other hand, can be played nearly to completion on any rainy day and should be done so by anyone interested in Fallout lore and some damn good gameplay and storytelling.

The voice acting and artwork for the important characters *talking heads* (The Master, Loxley, Gizmo, etc) alone are worth the price of admission imo.

The opening movie alone is worth it, it blows Fallout 3's away and really gives you an idea of how this all got started.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

I dont believe any sequel can ever be considered the definitive version of a game. So long as there ARE sequels, there will never be a definitive version . . . to each his own eh?

"You see ed . . . ed is dead"

Problem for me about those old games is that they don't age well.
I never played Fallout 1/2 back then, but I did play games like Baldurs Gate, I thought they were awesome back then.

A few months ago I played Baldurs Gate again and I just couldn't enjoy it, the presentation (graphics, sound and so on) made it unplayable for me, same thing with Fallout 1/2, when I heard about Fallout 3 I got to play the old ones but same thing happen, they were truly unplayable.

The only game from back then I can still play to this day is Diablo 2, but that's also pretty much the exception.

Well, for me, Fallout 1 and 2 are much more playable than Fallout 3. Same with Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment and the likes. The technical quality of the graphics might be dated, but the art direction is top notch. And what's wrong with the sound? The music in FO1 and 2 is IMHO much superior to the FO3 one.

Hmm... ya know I still seem to rememeber that games that Defined the gaming experience back in the day. Half life for one. Hell it's one of the biggest series out there. How about Command and Conquer? Or any of the other games that have lasted a decade or more? Course the old games can be hard to play sometimes cause of the graphics, that's all about perception and once you've seen the new bright and shiny tech, the old just doesn't have the same appeal that it did

Oh but wait, we're talking about a cult hit game aren't we? How about Serenity? That was a movie granted but it was based off of a series that had such a HUGE cult following that hollywood made a movie about it. What do you think the defining aspect for the hit was, the movie itself? or the fact that it had developed such a fan following from the series that hollywood had the incentive to make a movie about it?

You've made the claim that Fallout 3 IS the definitive game of the series. Well so what? Games have just as much to do with the generation of gamers playing it and it's reception as anything else. Regardless, I still enjoyed Fallout 1 and 2 much more than I enjoyed fallout 3 and if you didn't, well that's too damn bad. Have fun experiencing the next gen games. Do me a favor though, next time you decide to slap an entire generation of gamers in the face because your version of a game was much more advanced and had a much larger fan base, keep it to yourself. Some people actually take pride in the values and experiences they had in their lifetime, and while a game isn't exactly an important experience, it definately comes as an insult when you've applied the passage of time to people and labeled them obsolete. Keep in mind you may not have said this directly but thats exactly what your post implies.

LOL.

A level cap makes it less immersive.

With that logic I can tell you that levels themselves make it less immersive.

You should improve with a particular skill depending on how much you use it - and that would be immersive (just like irl)

but would it be fun? mmmm no I'm not too sure.

it also wouldn't be fun (or immersive) if you could become a god of everything at level 100 with enemies that stop scaling at level 20.

just saw that and had to argue.

I agree...it seems that the OP just wants some sycophantic boot-licking for his amazing deductive reasoning...

As someone who loves all 3 Fallout games (but can't stand fallout tactics or the other crap), I have this to say: what happened with the Grand Theft Auto series? The exact same thing that is happening here. The first 2 GTA games are much loved by traditionalists, but nobody can argue with the fact that GTA 3 is the definitive game in the series.

Another point that I'd like to add is that even if Fallout 3 is the definitive game in the series, that doesn't diminish the previous games.

Yeah, the Temple of Trials in Fallout 2 is a really crummy part of the game and it always makes starting a new game a chore when you've played it lots of times.

The original Fallout had a fantastic voice cast - Ron Pearlman, David Warner and other great actors.




I completely disagree, the art direction and soundtrack in the original games is brilliant. A game doesn't need to be loaded with bloom and fancy 3D effects to be good.

At least it's less of a chore than the Fallout 3 tutorial.



I can.

Well ok I'll indulge you but in response if you disagree you can shoot off a list of all the games that do it better, fair? Ok......

Well you have a massively realised game world which you are free to approach and explore in whatever direction and whatever pace you desire. Aside from Oblivion, another Bethesda game name me some more game series that have more content and bigger worlds than this? Of the handful you might be able to name I imagine the other's will fall into one of three categories, big game worlds but with very little content or depth, e.g Far Cry 2, big game world with depth aplenty but poorly executed, bug ridden and barely playable, e.g Boiling Point, or else a superb triple AAA title in its own right GTA 4 etc.

Secondly you have multiple paths through the same quests with options that can drastically alter the outcome of the quest, for example save a city, or bomb a city, side with the humans against the ghouls in Tenpenny, or side with the ghouls against the humans etc. This is a significant improvement over Oblivion and at least in my own experience is not realised in many other games, The Witcher being an exception, which again is a very fine game.

A nice mix of real time and tactical combat with great cinematics and satisfying fatality type moves, certainly I've not seen this in many games and for me at least they executed this very well indeed.

Multiple endings which although criticised by many people are a big step up from the endings of many otherwise decent games I have played, Bioshock anyone? Fear? A lot of games just go to some end credits.

Decent mini games that for a change actually resemble the activity they are supposed to portray, the lock picking and terminal hacking make far more sense than the pipe game in Bioshock.

The variety in the amounts and types of weapons is very impressive, dozens of different types, unique items, and you can make and repair your own, again aside from the excellent weapon customization in Stalker I've seen no game to rival the variety of what's on offer here.

Plenty of random ecounters, non scripted events and a living breathing game world to rival anything ever acomplished in any other video game. What games have a more 'real' gameworld than this, if you can name ones I guarantee they are games who are praised highly for their own world AI, Stalker being a good example.

I can't think of many games at all that offer as much content, variety, fun and replayability as Fallout 3 offers. If you think you know of games that are bigger, more beautiful, more immersive, offer you more freedom, more choice, and more fun that this one please tell me so I can rush out and buy them for Christmas!

I am myself very morrowind fan, and definitly Oblivion is very good, but Morrowind is much more broad wide world, the same way it looks to FO2 compared to fo3.

I never played fo and now with 3 im going when i end to check for fo2. The game is nice, but much than all, the lore is very good.

What ? LbP is a censored crap, horrible. FO3 rocks. I played straight 40 hours from Wenesday to sunday. More adicted than Jet.

OOOOOOOHHHHH!! Hey!!! I got an idea!!

You hardcoe fallout fans who are so self righteous and think that the only way to truly support fallout is to whine about how F3 changed things......quit complaining!!

Im obsessed with the postapocalypse BECAUSE of Fallout 1 and 2. I LOVE them and i think that anyone basing their Fallout experience of ONLY F3 should reconsider at least trying F1 and F2. BUT, that doesnt mean we should get on a hair acrossed our a** and disown F3. So stop being so nostalgic and why dont you try embracing change, cause nothing stays the same.

A TRUE fallout fan would accept that, just like IN fallout, things are always changing, and thought F3 might not be everything we hoped for......Its still better than playing F1 and F2 forever. I for one could only find only so many ways to experience Junktown or New Reno when its been years since i first played it. I was getting tired of dreaming of a F3. Now would you all rather we were just stuck with the console Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel as out latest fallout installment? Come on guys, Bethesda screwed up, but YOU try taking rougly a decade old franchise and modernizing it, expanding and continuing it, AND making it compatible with game mechanics.

The arguement about Anthony Hopkins defining the Hannibal Lecter role is accurate. F3 made Fallout mainstream. Fallout 1 and 2, while THE base of the fallout universe, were not well know or as mainstream as F3. If i remember correctly Interplay and Black Isle both fell apart and arent exactly in the big game making arena are they?!

Lets stick with PostApocalypse though. ALOT off ppl would say that any one of the Mad Max movies were THE definitive film. Though Mad Max was the original film, Road Warrior or Thunderdome really put it out there, defined and fine tweaked its style.



My point is......though Fallout 3 is something of a dissappointment, it IS the Fallout of today. Its new, mainstream, and has a hell of a lot more potential than 1 or 2. Especially if Bethesda smartens up for Fallout 4. BUT Fallout 1 and 2 are and forever will be the original and TRUE fallout experience. Its just that people need to accept that Fallout has a new face and if they really are fallout fans, they will have faith that the game will see its glory again....the right way, instead of whining that "But its different, and new, and i dont like change!!" Grow up and look at the potential.

There, Ive ranted enough. I think you guys should try it cause I see you all are holding back with this petty arguing over weak points.

i remember when a simply thing such as synthezised speech in a game would made you [censored] in your pants and give you a hardon.

Oh man. This thread is still alive?

Hey kjaye777,

I can't speak on behalf of every old Fallout fan, but speaking AS an old Fallout fan:

it's funny, reading through your list about all those things you love about the game kind of reminds me of what I and a lot of fans said about the original games when they first came out. How you feel about Fallout 3 now is comparable to what I felt when I played the first Fallout.

I think we're both the kind of persons who value games and the experiences we have while playing them. So why should your experience be more special than mine? Why should your experience be definitive to a series and mine, crude and low-budget?

I actually agree with you. I love Fallout 3. I think it does bring a lot to the table, not just to the Fallout series, but to the FPS and RPG genres. But please don't put down the original games. Especially since you haven't played them and you're judging them based on the biases of today. Give it another decade, when Fallout 5 comes out and a whole new generation of gamers is calling it the definitive Fallout game, and the original trilogy (including 3) are crude and low-budget. Maybe then you'd know why people defend 1 and 2 so fiercely.

Honestly, every time this thread comes up it feels like a shot to the groin. Oh wait. I forgot, you can't do that anymore.

I hope 3 is not the new fallout standard. otherwise all we can look forward to in 4 and other subsequent additions is;

Buggy (they did keep in tradition with the number of bugs, 2 was a mess...)
The same plot points over and over (How many ways can you be asked to kill everyone via infection from FEV?)
the same groups over and over (The master is dead, super mutants should be mostly in decline, the enclave was done, most everything was destroyed on the oil rig and even if they did survive en masse, the BOS has vertibird plans and plasma tech of their own)
And a ho hum story.

I loved playing 3, but one thing kept striking me. On the making of disc that came with my special edition the lead dev mentioned how they wanted to take it in their own direction. Good. But have the balls to do something new and creative. New location is a good start, but the FEV,Enclave, and BOS were not what made fallout. Lets see something new bethesda! You guys are great, don;t sell yourselves short!

Sorry, ill get off my soapbox now.

Well first of all I could be wrong but nobody likes it when something they enjoy is taken and dumbed down just to fit other people, whether it's a small group of the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY that people have talked about in this thread. The "weak points" that you're talking about are almost entirely "weak" due to this dumbing down, not flaws, not errors or glitches, just purposely executed modifications. That's why I get annoyed when people so ardently defend the new game while disregarding and disrespecting the old games. I don't mind change, but when you see something move in a direction which doesn't involve some sort of improvement, but rather the opposite, you lose concern for whether it's definitive, or new, or even the amount of potential it has.

Second, and although I'm repeating myself I want ot make this point especially clear, I don't care about change. I do care about the amount of respect people show for the previous games when they consider this new installment. When they disregard aspects of the first two FALLOUT games, for whatever reason, and than claim this one's a better FALLOUT game, I do get defensive. If they just wanna say it's a better game, fine. No worries whatsoever. But a better FALLOUT game, no. If some younger generation military kids started insinuating that they were better than or worth more than the WW2 veterans just because the times had changed, I'm sure they'd get defensive too.

And lastly your philosophy of accepting change apparently doesn't involve any sort of standard or expectation as to where that change should be headed. If over the next few years the automotive industry in general started manufacturing cars that got LESS fuel mileage and caused MORE pollution but had better air conditioning and a sleek new look, you would apparently accept it simply because they have the potential to become better when in fact they had taken a step back. So yeah, if you want my take on change, when you take a step forward, you shouldn't take two steps back.

Get this... ( chuckle ) he is comparing himself and the group he represents... to heroes who fought in World War 2. :rolleyes: Your sense of entitlement is based on the belief that you own Fallout. Listen, G.I. Joe - you do not own Fallout. You didn't save fallout. You didn't buy the rights to Fallout. Fallout owes you nothing.

The reality is: New fans have arrived, and treating their inexperience with hostility will only make them stronger. Every time you fail they will take a step forward. The right to appreciate all three games belongs to everyone. The success of Fallout 3 has caused the re-release of Fallout 1 and 2.

You know, there is already a website that uses Fallout as a way to hate others and the world. Things like that are no good to anyone.

Play WASTELAND... the supposedly Fallout 1 prequel...then come back and tell me which is a more true RPG, which they are all GREAT