No one can be right because its an opinion, and everyone's opinions are equal.

You may not like them, but that doesn't make them lesser then your.

When all things in a group are of equal value no object has any value above or below another thus labels such as right or wrong are useless because all are the same.


In this group of numbers below

2,2,2,2,2,2,2

All numbers in the group are two, which is a higher number? there isn't any, the same applies to opinions.

Taste is real, whether you like it or not. It doesn't need to be 'objective' in the way non-contradiction is. That kind of expectation is a fundamental misunderstanding of what value and taste is. Poor taste is a product of an unsubtle and dwarfish intellect. And the inescapable fact of the real world of scarcity and character is that the dwarfish and unsubtle intellects are the wrong kind of intellects. Most people are foolish people, and not a few of them are bad people. Bad and foolish people have bad and foolish taste. If you want to play post-modernist go ahead, but the fact is that most of what people read, think and say is [censored].

And some people have stupid opinions. Sorry, you're just being ridiculous. There is a reason idiots read trashy books. There is such a thing as quality of writing. Why do dumb people enjoy bad books? Because they're dumb people. Their preferences are wrong; and if they weren't so bloody stupid and dull they'd know it.

This PC egalitarian crap is a bunch of rubbish. Not all art - or culture - is equal. European literature > Maori stories. If you disagree, you're wrong.

As long as they like them it doesn't matter.

Also who are you to decide what is trashy? ohh wait no one.

You multi-culti relatavists fundamentally misunderstand what subjectivity of value entails. For one, it involves an irreduceable human prejudice. This is, for example, why the idea of 'animal rights' is absurd. Animals don't make arguments. There is only a question of human rights (such as, what may humans do to animals). There is a distinction between high and low culture, between taste and crassness and this has been acknowledged by essentially everyone in human history except for the left-wing vomitus of the modern age. It is the same kind of rubbish that purports there are no differences between men and women.

The idea that there are objective values is absurd, but that is just a misunderstanding of what value is - value is a subjective experience. And some people have bad values. Objectively? No. But that's an imaginary state. It is so from a human perspective. It is just as true to say that some people have poor taste as it is to say that cooperation is better than warfare. Maybe for some small class of people this distinction has no meaning, but to Hell with them. They are not to whom we are referring. Just as some people may choose to disregard property law and be tossed in a cage so those who deny a distinction between good and bad taste ought to be tossed in a literary limbo, as they know not of what they speak and have no business arguing at all.

Well

• There are no intresic differences between people of any race, gender, or sixual preference, everyone can do everything everyone else can in regards to working, thinking that is simple scientific fact, proven by countless years of people doing just that.
  
• Humans are a type of animal, that is just science, the only difference between us and them is that we think ourselves their better. If humans can have rights so can they, also animals do have arguments with each other over all types of resources much like humans do.
  
• Human prejudice can be reduced, it cant be destroyed no, but it can surely be beaten down into a very small state. the removal of nonexistent concepts such as good and Evil would destroy the very foundation that prejudice is built upon by removing the ability for people to claim they have some sort of superiority.

I must ask how old are you?

What, is there a faerie that comes down and makes Chinese people look different than Turks? Did they evolve those differences for no reason. For Wotan's sake, man, you leftards are a joke. Done with idiotville here, go back to fantasy-land where education is the only difference between morons and geniuses.

Genetics matter, [censored].

There is no belief more patently false, or dangerous, than the myth of human equality. It is the modern religion, and is just as magical and baseless as any.

And the notion that human prejudice should be beaten down is idiotic. We are not human without our prejudices. Try reading some Stirner or Nietzsche. Not that you have the neurons to comprehend either.

People had to evolve to the specific conditions that they lived, everyone's conditions were different and as such everyone evolved differently. However with advancements in modern technology negating everyones eviorment into something somewhat similar, and the long term affects of all the races in-breeding with each other humanity is heading down a path were the best of all genes, well at least the most dominant ones, will be eventually held by all. In the future there will only be one race. Genetics only mattered when we were subject to our environs, we are are not as much anymore and thus they matter less.

Beyond that calling me a "leftard" is silly because I have made no mention or hint as to my political alignment. Just so you can know, and stop making yourself look silly, I find both sides to be equally stupid. The world is constantly changing and with it the actions and the result of said actions are doing the same. Locking yourself in one specific path goes against the random and ever evolving nature of the world. There are times were being a Liberal are necessary, there are times being conservative are necessary, there are times when being socialist are necessary, so on and so forth. I choose not to pick any side because all sides are wrong in many cases and right in others. I will not limit my options just so I can participate in a dike swinging contest over who can be more Liberal then other liberals and who can be more conservative over other conservatives.
The only thing Equality threatens is arrogant, and close minded people who would rather have the world conformed to their will out of a misguided notion that they have some right to impose it on others. Equality hurts only those who seek to dominate others.
The notion that we should try to be better then our ancestors is wrong?

All of human progress has come from trying to be better then we once were, not trying to overcome our neanderthal like submission to prejudice is counter productive to Human advancement.




This has gotten terribly off-topic and I suggest we take the rest of this to PMs, and get back to the matter at hand.

Allow me to bring this thread back on topic with a post you can either praise or tear to shreads. Whatever strikes your fancy.

Currently the two most requested features for The Elder Scrolls series are:

1. Multiplayer support
2. Spears and Crossbows

Guess which one will find its way into TES VI.

If it is #2, I will be shocked.

Ever since Morrowind, Bethesda has been axing things like mad while making only minimal improvements on the features left.

Birthsigns? Gone. Replaced by Standing Stones. But Oblivion had Standing Stones, too. They were called Doomstones, and did exactly the same thing as Standing Stones did. So Bethesda removed a feature and advertised its replacement to be a feature that already existed.

Spellcrafting? Gone. Replaced by Dual-casting and dual-wielding spells. This is coupled with the 22 spell effects they removed while only adding in six new spells and bringing one back from Daggerfall ( ). What was so wrong with the previous system that it had to be slapped in irons and shackled in a cage? Oh, right... it was too spreadsheety. Like Skyrim's spells are any different.

Classes? Gone. In favor of a new "build as you go" system involving lots of skill perks. And ironically, this turned out to be even more restricting than the system they ditched it for. I'm not complaining about this, actually, I'm stating that the feature backfired. It was advertised as a system where you could be playing a warrior one moment and then decide you want to be a mage instead and go start delving into the magic arts. But what about all those perks you invested in Combat skills? You can't remove them, and since the entire skill system in Skyrim depends on perks, switching classes mid-game cripples your character. Way to go thinking this one through, Bethesda.

I don't get why people are so fixated on spears and crossbows they were abysmal weapons in Morrowind.

Spellcrafting probably wouldn't have been removed had it not been abused by so many people. I can easily see enchanting either geeting the axe or getting a severe nerf because of peoples actions already.

Most of the spell effects removed were done so because other spells did basically the exact same thing, or there was no need for them in Skyrim.

You are right that Oblivion had Birthsign stones and they were redundant. so in order to remove the redundancy in Skyrim they removed the more restricted of the two, the one you have to pick at the beginning of the game and could never change.

I don't see how the new system is more restrictive, I have found it far less restrictive then anything. Beyond that I have a whooping 0 perks in magic, am level 81 and still using magic frequently with little to no hasle beyond I cant use the UBER level spells which svcked anyways. I use magic more now then I ever did in Morrowind and Oblivion because I find it far more easy to use.

Say if things do get worse, as Bethesda tries to appeal to the mass market, there is one hope. Eventually they will get tired of TES and move onto to something else. When then happens, Bethesda will be forced to go back to Morrowind or better.

Variety is the spice of life.

I'm neutral about spears, but I really want to see crossbows return, if only to give warriors their own ranged weapon they can use.

Yeah, I could see crossbows being under the warrior tree and bows being under the thief/scout tree. I love Skyrim, like a fat kid loves candy, but the longer I play, the more I miss what was taken out.

Birthsigns were added in Morrowind, kept in Oblivion, then dropped in Skyrim. 3 of the 5 main TES games did not have birthsigns. Also, the Doomstones were not quite the same in Oblivion as they are in Skyrim -- in Oblivion they basically gave the you the Greater Power associated with the sign and did not restrict you to one at a time (IIRC), while in Skyrim they affect skill leveling and various stats, with some conferring an ability (and you can only have one at a time).

They removed an unnecessary feature that only half the games had and that didn't fit their character creation design, while expanding a feature introduced in the last game to take its place.

I don't mind the lack of spell making, but I don't really like how they removed so many spells, either. Removing spell making could've worked if they kept or increased the variety of spell effects and made them scale better with level.

Unfortunately, many buffs for magic worked by increasing duration or decreasing spell cost, which weren't very effective -- it meant you had to attack longer to do more damage (which put you at a disadvantage since a mage needs to hit fast and hard, especially as enemies increase in health and your DPS remains mostly constant outside of a few perks), and a summon didn't benefit at all as they'd likely be killed before their time was up (making the extra time worthless).

And the reliance on explosive/AoE spells made it impossible to work with companions, as they would more often than not take splash damage and be much more susceptible to dying.

They never said that. The idea was that you'd naturally specialize based on how you play, so if you start out using melee, you don't have to worry about being pidgeon-holed based on character creation choices if you find magic more suitable. In my experience, this has worked admirably: I started out being a Destruction/Conjuration/One-Handed, but as I got around level 5 or 10 I found Conjuration and One-Handed wasn't doing that well and instead seamlessly slipped into using Sneak and Archery in its place (in addition to Destruction). Now I'm in my 40s and am interested in trying sword and shield with light armor. Light Armor helps because all I had before was robes, and since I don't use magic that often, decking out in Light Armor isn't penalizing me too much (I could consider this a flaw, but it's relatively minor at this point), though I simply can't fight anything but the weakest enemies using a sword and shield and have to resort to archery and destruction to do any real damage.

As far as I can tell this is how it's intended to work. Though even if not, I would consider it a happy accident.

I don't either, but a lot of other people do. They see this as a needless restriction on their play-style, with the only reason it was removed being to force the notion of dual-casting down their throats.

There was no reason in the whole wide world for spellmaking to be removed, the balance argument falls apart when you take a look at how easy it is to tip the scales over through smithing and enchanting. To me personally, removing spellmaking was the Big Bethesda Blunder? for Skyrim. Since Oblivion, they have made at least one major screw-up or gameplay change that received an overwhelming negative reception and they have admitted to. Oblivion was the level-scaling, Fallout 3 was no continuation after the game ended, and for Skyrim, I have a feeling it will be the removal of spellmaking. People are spewing venom over it being gone.

I am all for more then when they really interact with the game, crossbows and spears felt really thrown in and I understand why they were removed.

The same goes for many of the removed spells, they were duplicates, or so close to something else they were basically duplicates, Having like 400 spells doesn't mean anything when 1/2 of them are basically just the same thing.

Having things is nice when they actually do something unique but having a lot of the same thing isn't fun IMO, nor is it good game design.

Hopefully they'll realize removing Spellmaking was a disaster that makes Oblivion's Glass Bandits pale in comparison.




They made several Big Blunders^TM in Morrowind as well - Shrinking the world to "Tiny" being one of them.

They also made one in Daggerfall, but I'm not quite sure what it is yet.

Morrowind? tiny?

The change from a randomly generated world to a pre-generated world may have decreased the size but it made the world significantly more detailed and believable.

I personally would rather have a smaller more detailed world then some big generic nothingness.

The difference is, using enchanting and smithing "normally" isn't overpowering (or shouldn't be, if balanced properly). Spellmaking, on the other hand, welcomed overpowering effects with open arms. Spellmaking was essentially a crutch, it was Bethesda saying "we can't make anything better as you level up, so do it yourself". There was no "normal" way to handle spellmaking beyond making powerful spells, and this is in conjunction with mages already being insanely overpowered at high levels. The entire design behind spellmaking screamed for abuse, while enchanting and smithing have a more meaningful purpose to it than being a god-mode-enabler.

I would say the quest system is a much bigger blunder. Magic can be salvaged by tweaking the buffs and how it scales, and bringing in more useful spells (which can be done via DLC), while the quest system is poorly designed from the ground up. Enter a city, get a ton of quests dumped on you without warning, and being told "if you don't want to do it, just ignore your ever-filling quest log". The miscellaneous quests are a step down from Oblivion's in terms of writing, the pacing of the main guilds is abysmal, the quest log provides almost no information besides pointing right to your target, and the dialog leaves much to be desired. Fixing this would require going back over almost all the quests, rewriting them so you can get a proper journal history, modifying them to pace better, adding the option of declining them as appropriate, and possibly recording the extra lines to deal with this (though if you're desperate, I bet there's enough prerecorded dialog that you could fit something in). The much-touted Radiant Quests were also handled much better in Daggerfall, over 15 years ago (although the core idea is good, so it can be improved still).

Ultimately, I don't see the quest system being salvageable by DLC (I mean, who would want to pay for a DLC that adds next to nothing and only fixes the existing quest system?). The magic system can be better handled as DLC as it would mostly deal with some tweaks, and add plenty of new content (extra spells, more quests for mage characters, etc).

Maybe the quest system could be salvaged by a decent expansion (Morrowind's expansions vastly improved the in-game journal, even for vanilla content), but from what I can tell, Bethesda doesn't seem that keen on doing big, sweeping expansions that also changes vanilla content anymore.

Compared to Daggerfall, yes. It's quite literally the difference between a game the size of Great Britain vs a game the size of a fair town.

Is it just me or is it hard to RP in Skyrim? I was thinking of trying to rp in Skyrim, but I'm thinking whats the point? I could have a character who is a Nord warrior who lived in Skyrim all his life, but everyone thinks hes new and even though hes a warrior, hes forced into the mages and thieves guild. Also, the main quest of Skyrim seems forced onto people more than Oblivion. In Oblivion, you didn't know that the Oblivion gates were open till you either went to Kvatch (sp?) or started the main quest, but you weren't rushed. However, in Skyrim you know dragons are back and if you were rping, you'd make it your top priority to kill them then doing whatever.

I wasn't forced into either the mages or thieves guild, WTF are you talking about?

For the main quest, you are. You can avoid joining the Thieves guild or just get the quest to join. However, to get across the bridge and go into the college, you must prove you're worth. Sure you can say you're dragonborn and shout, but she'll let you pass and tell you to talk to the lady (forget her name) to begin your lessons.

You do know there is a hidden entrance that lets you bypass the "prove your worth" thing?

Also you can skip that phase of the quest entirely if you so desire. No one is making you do it.

Wait what? o_o Since when was this, and why wasn't I told this? However, this doesn't change the fact, I could be a native of Skyrim, but they treat me as if I just crossed the border.