This thread saddens me. TES is a RPG series! It needs more RPG elements, not less!

Perhaps RPG elements can be overwhelming at some point... but they won't be in Skyrim. I think if anything, they're drawing back a little from RPG elements. (just a little)

Big solid NO! There is no such a thing as too much RPG in RPG game. The very thought of someone thinking that way is sad. If you don't like RPGs - don't play them it's that simple. Oblivion was not much of RPG as it is, more a free roaming world demonstration with some fighting thrown in, if the series go even less RPG I'm out of here.

The best case scenario would be a RPG where you could roleplay as much or as little as you wanted and still have a great gaming experience either way. Out of all the devs of relevence, Bethesda I believe, does the best job at achieving this.

Agreed.

I RPG elements don't have to be things that get in the way of playing a game.. they're part of it. If we didn't have systems for using different skills, how could we roleplay a different character each time? It would cut down the replayability. Elder scrolls have skills going up naturally by use so they don't get in the way. And now it looks like they will do that more with character levels too. It's still RPG elements, just presented in a different way.

What is tedious for some is engaging for others.

I think that as long as the RPG elements are well integrated and are intuitive then all is well. I believe the "tedious" aspects stem from poor implementation (or at least this has been my experience). In all honesty I would MUCH rather have too many role playing elements than not enough, but with that being said I do understand that there can be too much. I like the idea of being able to micro-manage many elements of RPG games, but if I am forced to constantly open up menus etc. to complete an objective then it takes away from the experience. So perhaps I did nothing more than support your argument, but I did want to point out that sometimes it is much better to have too many elements/options than not enough.

I can't speak for developers but I can speak for where my line would be drawn. My line is drawn waaay, waaaay past Oblivion. I'm solidly in the "more RPG the better" crowd. If there is such a thing as "too much RPG", no developer has come close to hitting it in the last decade as far as I'm concerned. If I had it my way all RPGs would be at the level of Baldur's Gate 2 and Planescape: Torment at the very least. I would have developed Oblivion to actually improve on Morrowind's RPG elements (to think I once believed Morrowind was kind of RPG-lite...yikes), not take away. It's funny this thread is on here...because from where I'm sitting The Elder Scrolls series is not in any danger of becoming "too much RPG" anytime soon.

the arena skills were way too much RPG, a lot of them were just stupid, like you had a different skill for every faction/monster

I fail to see why this thread belongs in Skyrim General Discussion.

One word "Never" :celebration:

TES, as most CRPG, are far, far away from role playing. RPG are not about customizable attributes and possession. RPG are about behaviour, about the ability to act differently depending on who is your character. Pushing RPG in games is giving more dialog options (especially those reflecting different personnalities), more ways to handle situations (diplomaticaly, honnestly, treacherously...) and different pathes. Oblivion gave no choices in dialogs, no alternative ways to do quests. The only role customisation was in doing or not doing things, never in doing them differently. I hope they put much, much more RPG in Skyrim, because I'm still waiting for a proper portage of real role playing on computers.

This.

As for the matter at hand, it's all subjective. Some people think that when it gets to DnD style it's too much, and some think that Oblivion's RPG elements were too much. Others can be along the same lines, in between the range, or even outside of it (though I don't know how you can get more straight full on RPG than DnD). I'm sure there's even people who think that Mass Effect 2 has too many RPG elements.

This is why it's best to have the devs decide for us when it comes to things like this. And I'm sure, because of this great community, they'll know if we liked or hated their implementation and know how to possibly approach it next time.

Uh, I don't think you're going to have to worry about "too much rpg" with Skyrim. If anything it looks like it's getting simpler


for people similar to those who post here

Too much rpg. Lol'd. Looks like they've mainstreamed the game even more than OB.

If by RPG elements, you mean different options to develop a character, then I would say: The more the merrier, *if* those elements done the right way.

So the problem with RPG elements would not be about how many elements are there, but about how they are implemented, or if they are the right choice.

It's too much when the roleplaying elements completely overshaddow the gaming experience.

What i mean by that is that even though it's a roleplaying game, it's also a video/computer game and when you no longer feel that, when you start to feel you might aswell be playing an interactive board game, then it's too much. So far, i have never felt that. The closest thing would be Morrowind, namely the combat system but i somehow learned to live with it, perhaps because it did so many other things right or maybe because of it's age, i am not sure i would be nearly as forgiving if a RPG today did something similar.

I am far more concerned that they (Bethesda as well as other WRPG developers) will go in the other direction. Take a look at a game like Mass Effect 2. Look at it's basic construction, the skill tree, the way you optain the right to buy new skills. If it wasn't because it succeeded and even surpassed most roleplaying games in areas that i think a good roleplaying game also needs, areas that is mostly overlooked, i am not even sure i would consider it a roleplaying game. And even Skyrim seems to continue this trend. So that's where my concern lies.

What...stop playing ES games? NO WAY

I have never found a computer game with enough RPG elements for me to feel it was enough, even Morrowind and Oblivion had very few RPG elements.

Some seem to think stats = RPG, but that′s false, RPG says itself, Role-Playing Game, a game where you take a role upon yourself and act with it, and one of the important factors of an RPG is immersion, the more immersion the better you can live into the role.

A good RPG would be a game that is realistic within its own universe, that has choices with consequences ranging everywhere from white to gray to black.
Obviously some factors may be a bit too tedious, like with my definition one could have super-strength which would be normal within the fantasy universe in question however the character should realistically have problems walking around with everything, like you′d need a large bag to carry 4 big briastplates, this is where I would perhaps say there was a limit, where you could bend the rules a bit and just keep it like in Oblivion where you can′t see yourself with any inventory but you do have it but have to be strong enough to carry everything. However things like fast travel, having to rest from time to time, having to eat, (perhaps not having to return the food...), feeling the weather having it affect you and many more things are things I think just add immersion.

Then some fantasy worlds find ways to keep something like inventory immersive, if we look at D&D for example they have "bags of holding" there, basically bags that are magically enchanted to contain dimensions within them so you can carry large things in a small bag since they are in a different dimension that you reach into to grab your stuff when you need it.

In fact this question makes me want to create a different kind of threat on my own, discussing this subject but in a more confined manner.

So easy that... it's not true. That threshold varies for different people. I want a deep game, but no bullshyte like eating and drinking each hour to avoid penalties.

Well, that eating and drinking remark clearly illustrates what you said. I think it belongs, fits well, and still doesn't have to become too tedious.

There probably is a limit. I just haven't found it yet. Modern games doesn't even come close to what we had to endure in the old days. Blade of Destiny is easily the best CRPG I ever played, even if it was party based, isometric fighting, and 2D world big as Europe with a big focus on survival and journeys (rather than backyard exploration). It was based on dice RPG (which I also played at the time), which may be why it was so extremely appealing. Originally made in German only and planned for German release only, but became super popular over night and they had to make it an international release.

I suggest at least reading the manual if you think todays RPGs become tedious by having us eat and rest:
http://eager.back2roots.org/DATA/B/BLADE.html

However, since reading skills are deteriorating, or at least "time consuming and tedious ", maybe you should search for "Lets play blade of destiny" on youtube instead. I swear, I was much more *into* my several characters in this game, than I ever was in a TES game.

Too much rpg can be a bad thing if it's not handled well. It's good to know that Bethesda has Master Artists, so they can make this work with the right amountbof rpg.

Indeed. I can walk for hours in a pretty landscape and not get bored, but I can conceive how others might want means to deal with their quests more rapidly.