The Elder Scrolls definitely provides one of the deeper RPG console experiences out there in terms of customizable attributes for characters and their possessions. But I wonder if it's possible to go too far? Obviously, the team at Bethesda has managed to strike a solid balance of depth and ease of use, but where's the line that they draw and how do they know? Should we be able to build weapons from separate pieces a la Dead Rising 2, each with its own stat, and should we be able to do some kind of stat tweaking a la Fallout 3?

Like Todd said in the interviews, and in an interview with Ken Levine, RPG elements are popping up everywhere because they're "sticky" and promote investment in a game. Should this trend be scaled back, even within Skyrim, or is RPG the future of gaming, as Cliffy B seems to think?

Thats easy. :rolleyes:


Yes there is a limit.


That limit is when it starts to impede on gameplay and becomes tedious.


Easy.

^^^^this.

RPG elements are only sticky in games that are not RPGs, the elder scrolls are RPGs so obviously, if it did not have RPG elements, it would be a box with a blank CD.

Well put. It's tough to see when that is though.

Well... they're damn good. My favourite example is Starcraft 2, where they managed to throw in a moral choice or two in an RTS. And they were great.

But you'll still have Half-Life-s, Call of Duty-s, Mario Galaxy-s, whatever. this industry is hugely diverse, and almost any sweeping generalisation people make about it is... plain wrong.

It's like saying that The Social Network was a good film, so every film will follow in its footsteps. And yes, some are - but nowhere near everyone.

At the moment it looks like easy FPS are the future in gaming, but thank God there is such a big community for RPGs too.
The RPG elements have to fit into the lore, the universe the game is in and of course, the time and the money a company has .
I think those are the most limiting factors.
If you give Bethesda a lot of money and a lot of time I'm sure they would implement a whole new bunch RPG features, but somewhere has to be an end.
If there is non, than the game would be never released...you here me, Duke? I once loved you, you were my hero...my big blonde hero...

The problem is that everyones concept of when it start to impede on gameplay and becomes tedious, is different.

Not really.

Its when your playing and you think to yourself "Wow this isn't fun anymore".

The problem is that the limit is going to be different for different people. There is a market for games which are 'classic' RPG, stat heavy with masses of equipment and character customisation. This market has shrunk (or failed to expand with the increased cost of developing RPGs), but it's still there. Similarly there's the market for 'RPG lite' games, where the emphasis is more on combat mechanics, real-time player skill, plot and immersion.

There is a very large overlap between the two markets.

The further a developer moves toward either extreme, the more of the combined audience they're going to lose. Trying to find the ideal position, where they appeal to the largest audience, is the holy grail of RPG developers.

The point where there is 'too much' RPG for the most stat/micro-management loving players is going to be way out there. The point at which it's only commercially viable doing a top-down isometric game with simple graphics will be a lot closer.

yes, but a player could consider that something is fun and other that is not.

May I be the first to say:

Huh? :mellow:

I personally love RPGs (and I mean old school JRPGs), but I think Oblivion did a good job balancing RPG elements with action elements. The games are really are evolving from the standard DnD rules to more of a hybrid game, and I'm fine with this transition. I don't find the RPG elements overwhelming, and the further simplification (not really but sort of) we are starting to see in Skyrim look like the game will be even more open to casual gamers, while still allowing the in depth tweaking and customization we look for in RPGs.

He's saying that some features, as mind numbingly tedious and horrendously repetative they may, are enjoyed by some people, just not everyone.

Different players have different ideas of 'fun'. Some people hate the Morrowind combat system, others aren't as bothered. So it's hard to say whether something is too much for everyone.

Now your just arguing semantics.

That could be said of anything. Including everything from camera view (FPS or 3rd Person) to genre (RPG or FPS).

All that matters is what the developers think. It's their game and its just a matter of preference.

So the complete answer for all you "philosophiserz" out there is:

The ideal situation is when the developer recognizes the greater majority of players think that the game has become less fun and more tedious to play.

RPG isn't tedious by its nature. So there is no too much RPG IMO. Especially in an RPG game. Some mechanics may be tedious, but they can be corrected. The game won't be any less RPG.

I don't think he's arguing with you, bud.

Good for you! :goodjob:

Thanks! :foodndrink:

More RPG stuff the better. I don't care how slow it makes the game, if it makes it a more immersive and meaningful experience, well that's just great. That's what a good RPG is to me...a meaningful gaming experience. If I had a choice between fast-paced, easy-to-understand, action-packed blood-drenched combat and having to cook, eat and sleep, I'd pick having to cook, eat and sleep. But I am a hardcoe RP-er and couldn't care less about how realistic the blood streaks on my character's armor look. HOWEVER since Skyrim seems like it will have many of these things, I think it'll cater at least adequately well to both types of gamers.

yep

OR when you start wearing armor in public and try to persuade people by trying to operate a card board speech wheel your lifting with your left hand near their face. :teehee:

When it stops being fun.

For instance, I created a character I role-played was blind. He couldn't read anything, had to hug the walls etc. It got tedious, so I just went "Fine! He has super senses that he's able to do everything else but see!" So now he plunges himself into Oblivion Gates and closes them, despite the fact he's supposed to be blind. How does he read? I pretend there's a Tamriel equivalent of Braille, but the game has me read it printed while he reads it in Braille.

The only things I didn't change was the blindfold mod. That blunt staff mod he used as a cane? I tossed away long ago. Probably lying in the bottom of Lake Rumare somewhere.

While a lot of action-y games are adding rpg elements, a lot of traditional rpg games are getting more action-y and losing rpg elements. End result: half-assed rpg/action games with meaningless rpg elements (ME2).

As far as I'm concerned, the more rpg the better.

It's never enough.

More RPG means that it's more like a pen&paper RPG, where you're only limited to your imagination and the ability of the GM to make your ideas come to life, or penalize them depending on how stupid the idea is.
It doesn't mean is simulating every mundane aspect of being alive, but just enough so that it feels as you're playing a part in a good novel.

The idea is as simple as that.