How original is the TES world?

Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:38 pm

I just finished a 2 semester course on the European Civilization & History & You'd laugh out loud if you saw the notes I took during the chapters on the early Roman Republic & it's growth into the overstretched empire. (Seriously, my notes look like the Pocket Guide to the Empire ;) )
As a quick example, note the name of the river on the map.
http://keep2.sjfc.edu/class/bnapoli/msti431/jpk7984/msti431/oldromemap.jpg
SEPTIMiana?

....GOD I loved that class :D

And if you look at a map of Middle Earth, you can sometimnes see the names of the daeda looking out at you.

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/hugo1900/MAP-OF-MIDDLE-EARTH-VERSION-7.jpg

Let's see, NURN, riverside Lebannin, ash mountains, Dagorlad, Druwaith Iuar. sound familiar?


The point is that although TES uses stereotypes (or tropesk, if you like) from multiple areas of fantasy and fiction, its the way that it doesn't always apply. Not all Dunmer are nasty or evil, not all Altmer are mages or snooty, not all oecs are brainless killing machines. It creates a world that's familiar but not as cliched as other works.
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Big Homie
 
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Post » Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:29 am

And this is exactly what bothers me about fantasy. As far as fictional genres go, fantasy should have the most potential for originality of all. Because it doesn't have to portray the real world or be bound by its rules, sure, some fantasy stories do take place on Earth, but even those get room for making their own things up, and a lot of fantasy takes place in a world that is not real, giving the writers freedom to do their own thing. Now, you could argue that science-fiction also offers a lot of such freedom, and despite it's name, it's not like it has to be bound by real world science. But generally, science-fiction tries to convince audiences that it's about things that could happen in the future and/or some distant part of the universe. Thus, while science-fiction might give us technology that isn't possible with modern science, possibly with some sort of techno-babble explanation, it's generally not going to consciously rewrite the very structure of the universe, yet fantasy has this freedom, and some settings take it. So why is it that science-fiction authors can create worlds that truly feel alien, but fantasy authors rarely succeed in doing so? This annoys me to great ends.



The very fact that the mythical creatures aren't original prevents it from feeling original, considering that you actually see them regularly, and thus they have a major effect on the feel of the world, the whole messed up cosmology on the other hand which is fairly unique is (and despite all I have been saying about originality, in this case, I must say, thankfully.) something you rarely here about unless you obsessively read every bit of lore in the series.


The problem writers face with fantasy is that if you don't use some familiar tropes, it tends to distance the readers from the story because it's "too weird". The same problem arises in science fiction. You can make a world as alien as possible, but if you don't put enough familiar elements in there, it really turns most people off. This has come from many many discussions by writers at various SF/Fantasy conventions I've attended. Fantasy as a genre is actually highly traditional in a sense, and it relies heavily as a rule on folklore and mythology from the past. You could write something that's completely out there, but the typical reaction to your work would be, "I don't get it." Sad but true. I found this out the hard way. I tried writing a fantasy story once that didn't rely on any common fantasy tropes whatsoever and created a completely alien fantasy world, and the reaction to my work was...dead cold. Nobody was interested.

That's why fantasy games stick to the familiar, because it's safe. I think Morrowind is one of the most unique fantasy settings out there, but I've heard a lot of other people complain that it was "too weird", and so Beth decided to go back to a nice safe high-medieval fantasy setting for Oblivion. Then they released Shivering Isles, and I was appeased for my desire for original content, but again, other people complained that it was "too weird". I really think Bethsada ought to stop listening to those people and just make the world they envisioned. I really want to see the Black Marsh in one of the next games. :)
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Dan Scott
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:45 pm

And I'd literally KILL to see Valenwood as was written in http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:A_Dance_in_Fire,_v1 :drool:
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Marcus Jordan
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:59 pm

And this is exactly what bothers me about fantasy. As far as fictional genres go, fantasy should have the most potential for originality of all. Because it doesn't have to portray the real world or be bound by its rules, sure, some fantasy stories do take place on Earth, but even those get room for making their own things up, and a lot of fantasy takes place in a world that is not real, giving the writers freedom to do their own thing. Now, you could argue that science-fiction also offers a lot of such freedom, and despite it's name, it's not like it has to be bound by real world science. But generally, science-fiction tries to convince audiences that it's about things that could happen in the future and/or some distant part of the universe. Thus, while science-fiction might give us technology that isn't possible with modern science, possibly with some sort of techno-babble explanation, it's generally not going to consciously rewrite the very structure of the universe, yet fantasy has this freedom, and some settings take it. So why is it that science-fiction authors can create worlds that truly feel alien, but fantasy authors rarely succeed in doing so? This annoys me to great ends.


Because most fantasy writers (like most writers in any genre) are hacks writing what people expect and what the publishers know will sell. Thats fine if you want an easy read for on the plane.

In games many people (IMO) like the familiar. Knights, horses, fireballs etc. They can start playing the game and know whats expected of them. A game made for a mainstream audience isn't going to take big risks by upsetting too many of the conventions of the genre.

Most SF is just as bound by conventions as fantasy is. For every writer like Philip K. dike theres a dozen L. Ron Hubbards or E. E. "Doc" Smiths out there writing interminable series about galactic empires.
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Nienna garcia
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:05 pm

Not so much, but it handles the "ordinary" fantasy things much more interesting.

And Drow and Dunmer is not even close similar except that they're Blackish.
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lacy lake
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:38 pm

At least one way The Elder Scrolls separates itself from other fantasy is that the Dwarves are extinct, and dragons arn't really there either. To me, that always stood out. I remember playing Morrowind and going like: "What the hell, where are the dwarves? what they're dead? All of them you say?!... How cool is that!"
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kristy dunn
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:09 pm

when my dad first saw the map of cyrodill he said "couldnt they have just done something other than australia?"

i see the resemblance
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Michael Russ
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:54 pm

I remember playing Morrowind and going like: "What the hell, where are the dwarves? what they're dead? All of them you say?!... How cool is that!"

:biglaugh:
And then, "What?! The term 'Dwarf' is really a misnomer, and they're just as tall as regular people? What?! Dwarves are really a variety of elf? Well that's nontraditional!"
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Siobhan Wallis-McRobert
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:46 pm

:biglaugh:
And then, "What?! The term 'Dwarf' is really a misnomer, and they're just as tall as regular people? What?! Dwarves are really a variety of elf? Well that's nontraditional!"

And they're the closest thing to race-wide atheism TES has to offer
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-__^
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:00 pm

Yeah, the more I think about it, Dwemer represented one of the biggest mind-[censored]s in regard to stereotypical fantasy I had ever encountered when I first started playing Morrowind. God, I was so high on Tolkein back then. And then, *plays Morrowind*, cue shattering of fantasy world-view.
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Maria Leon
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:07 pm

Oblivion isn't less original then Morrowind.... It's true that the Dunmer have a unique culture, but It was already known that the Imperials were a mixture between medieval's and Roman's... In Morrowind you also saw Imperial architecture and it was medieval... If TES III would be in Cyrodiil probably every building would have that architecture....

But in Oblivion they gave each city each own architecture based on it's location qua surrounding nature and bordering foreigners....

Besides.. if TES V would really be in Skyrim, you would even have a bigger problem since they are even more copied from Norse people then Imperials are from Roman and Medieval...
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Your Mum
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:43 pm

The problem writers face with fantasy is that if you don't use some familiar tropes, it tends to distance the readers from the story because it's "too weird". The same problem arises in science fiction. You can make a world as alien as possible, but if you don't put enough familiar elements in there, it really turns most people off. This has come from many many discussions by writers at various SF/Fantasy conventions I've attended. Fantasy as a genre is actually highly traditional in a sense, and it relies heavily as a rule on folklore and mythology from the past. You could write something that's completely out there, but the typical reaction to your work would be, "I don't get it." Sad but true. I found this out the hard way. I tried writing a fantasy story once that didn't rely on any common fantasy tropes whatsoever and created a completely alien fantasy world, and the reaction to my work was...dead cold. Nobody was interested.

That's why fantasy games stick to the familiar, because it's safe. I think Morrowind is one of the most unique fantasy settings out there, but I've heard a lot of other people complain that it was "too weird", and so Beth decided to go back to a nice safe high-medieval fantasy setting for Oblivion. Then they released Shivering Isles, and I was appeased for my desire for original content, but again, other people complained that it was "too weird". I really think Bethsada ought to stop listening to those people and just make the world they envisioned. I really want to see the Black Marsh in one of the next games. :)


I think this is spot on.
Fantasy is escapist literature. People read it to relax and get away from real world complexities. Thats why fantasy often has black and white cardboard cutout heroes and villains, and a happy ending where good triumphs over evil in time for tea, what Michael Moorcock described as 'Epic Pooh'.
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Mrs shelly Sugarplum
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:21 pm

Unfortunately, the probability is that TES V will be even more "generic" than Oblivion, likely with a stereotypical "Norse" setting and stereotypical "fantasy arctic" creatures and adversaries.

The developers seem to be leaning increasingly on the "safe" side, going for more "casual" audiences who might feel some twinge of distance from any kind of non-traditional setting. Paradoxically, this craving to cater to the "masses" ultimately leads to generic and boring drivel that will lose its appeal both to their own more creative developers and to any remaining fans of earlier settings. The end result for the buyers is "just another game" ("yawn"), like Rocky XXIII would be "just another movie", and "just another job" for the developers, with any real creativity by the artists and programmers strongly frowned upon by the accountants and marketing executives who ultimately decide what gets funded and produced. The end result would be a TES series that goes out with a whimper, forgotten and unmourned.
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Jack Bryan
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:15 pm

At least one way The Elder Scrolls separates itself from other fantasy is that the Dwarves are extinct, and dragons arn't really there either. To me, that always stood out. I remember playing Morrowind and going like: "What the hell, where are the dwarves? what they're dead? All of them you say?!... How cool is that!"


AND Dwarves weren't short, stocky beardo's in TES, despite Yagram looking like that from Corprus. They were tall, thin Beardos!

The TES world is about as original as any D&D campaign setting. There's gonna be several large overlapping ideas and perhaps even religious fashions. But in the long run, there's enough difference to know when you're in a TES game and when you're not.

The developers seem to be leaning increasingly on the "safe" side, going for more "casual" audiences who might feel some twinge of distance from any kind of non-traditional setting. Paradoxically, this craving to cater to the "masses" ultimately leads to generic and boring drivel that will lose its appeal both to their own more creative developers and to any remaining fans of earlier settings. The end result for the buyers is "just another game" ("yawn"), like Rocky XXIII would be "just another movie", and "just another job" for the developers, with any real creativity by the artists and programmers strongly frowned upon by the accountants and marketing executives who ultimately decide what gets funded and produced. The end result would be a TES series that goes out with a whimper, forgotten and unmourned.


Well said. Honestly? I shrugged it off in Oblivion. I figured they didn't make a second expansion, because they weren't happy post mortem with the game. But when Bethesda threw in SecuROM on the PC version of the game (which by the leak of the game before release shows it didn't F'ing work), and required Windows Live. That step alone showed me that they're caring more about mass sales of the product then trying to cater for fans of their games anymore. I'm afraid TES V will steal away the last bit of hope I have left in getting TES back on track. It feels like it'll be another "large open world" with nothing to do after 20 hours.
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Honey Suckle
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:39 am

mixture between medieval's and Roman's


The medieval era was a time period, not a culture, and wasn't even at the same time in different parts of the world. If anyone 'knows' that, they're wrong. Don't listen to them ;)

(yes I know people often use 'medieval' as if it describes a culture or technology level - I don't listen to them, either)
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benjamin corsini
 
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